Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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Yes, I see - I need to pay more attention to the little details in Payen! I remembered it as being very similar to Dodal and so wasn't looking. I didn't realize it was one of Tarot of Marseille Heritage's decks, with the trumps online, until I did a specific search and found it.

I see that Carrajan is on Camoin's site,
https://en.camoin.com/tarot/Carrajat-Ma ... Tarot.html. If you have links to the others, I'd like to know

For his Tower card, Jodorowsky has a door at the bottom of the tower. I do not see any such door on any historical TdMs. Nor do I know of any without dividing lines for bricks (or stones) on the bottom steps. Some earlier Tower cards, such as the 16th century Ferrara/Venice printed version on a Budapest/Metropolitan sheet, do have doors. Even then, there is nothing like the odd three-leafed bush-like design on it - just a black space for the doorway, with perhaps a figure in it. This sheet has steps without dividing lines for bricks.

Otherwise, Jodorowsky's version seems particularly associated with Conver's version, because the fingers of the falling figure are not cut off by the bottom border of the image, as they are in every other TdM2 that I have seen - for example, the Chosson (3rd image). I imagine that the reason the fingers are cut off is that originally the figure was shown falling into water, as in Flornoy's reconstruction of Noblet's card. When the water changed to earth, the card makers still submerged the tips of the fingers. Then Conver decided to move the fingers up a little. (It is more pronounced in the version on Tarot of Marseille Heritage Gallery.) Jodorowsky is just improving a little on what Conver did. The elongated first downward flame coming down from the sun is like Tourcaty's (far right below), as is the color scheme of the bricks.
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The Conver Star card (2nd from left below) has light blue all over the bottom part of the card. But the horizontal lines beneath the figure's left knee suggest something solid, as in Payen, for example (or less clearly, Dodal), where the blue under her knee has been replaced by yellow. The star-lady's face is from Chosson, as are most of the raindrop shapes on the ground. The eye-shaped navel is from Dodal (far right), and also the idea of having points inside the stars. Payen's navel is rounder, and there are no points.
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Jodorowsky's Moon seems a blend of Conver and Chosson, but with some additions. There are several orange, red, and blue moondrops on the ground. The orange and red ones are from Payen, http://www.tarot-de-marseille-heritage. ... n1713.html, earth-colored there. It is hard to know if the blue ones are on the woodcut, as the paint obscures that area. Jodorowsky has details on the shore that are incompatible with Conver but might be hiding under the paint in Chosson. On Tarot of Marseille Heritage the Heri (far right below) has some foliage on the water's edge, loosely corresponding to Jodorowsky's.
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Last edited by mikeh on 06 Jun 2023, 10:41, edited 2 times in total.

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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Jodorowsky's Sun card turns what seemed to be a fold in the left figure's right leg (Conver, 2nd from left) into a tail. In Chosson (3rd from left), it is left white, as if to emphasize it, but there are also other flesh-colored spots left white. Oddly enough, Tourcaty (4th from left) also emphasizes that part, coloring it differently than the rest of the leg. The face of Jodorowsky's figure on our right is unaccountably cheerful: historically, that figure is invariably gloomy. The plant on the right is found in Tourcaty. The horizontal lines which Jodorowsky says are of a "river" are an exaggeration of what appears in Payen (far right) and Dodal, to a lesser extent (not shown).
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The Judgment card is basically Conver (2nd from left), but since he cut off the bottom edge of the tomb, that part comes from Chosson (3rd from left). The yod-like shapes in the air seem to be Jodorowsky's take on a feature in Payen (far right) and to a lesser degree Dodal (not shown).
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Last edited by mikeh on 06 Jun 2023, 10:46, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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For the World, Jodorowsky's image is essentially that of Conver (2nd from left), with some details revealed better by Chosson (3rd from left), chiefly what the eagle is standing on. Otherwise the face comes from Paul Marteau's card, as still published by Grimaud (4th from left). Somewhere Jodorowsky said he liked its androgyny, and thought it came from a late 19th century Camoin version. There is also the vial held in the figure's right hand. This seems to me a misreading of what is more likely the figure's hand around a small baton. Finally, there is whatever the main figure is standing on. That seems to come from Tourcaty (far right).
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The Fool is that of Conver (2nd), with certain details added from Chosson (3rd). The light blue between his feet is typical of the TdM2, of which Conver is an exception, although I don't know of any in which the blue extends to both sides of his right leg. Two questions. I don't know where the pattern on his upper back comes from. What I see on the decks, if it is not totally opaque, is just a series of parallel vertical lines. Also, I am not sure where the crescent moon-circle on his hair comes from - perhaps it is something obscured by the red dots on the Payen (4th).
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Last edited by mikeh on 06 Jun 2023, 10:51, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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Thanks, Steve, for the Noblet Emperor.

Turning to the court cards, I'll start with Coins. They are again based overall on Conver but with details viewable in Chosson and Tourcaty. On the King, the only features I can't find are (a) the coin floating in the air on the King of Coins; (b) the ermine pattern; and (c) the curved lines just below it. Has he just taken the ermine pattern from other cards and applied it here, or does it actually exist on those cards in some historic deck? Online the only King with anything like that ermine pattern is Jacques Burdel's, 1813, but not the same and in different places on the card (https://www.tarot-de-marseille-heritage ... l1813.html).
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I have a question, Steve. How do you attach a file so that it shows up in the post, as opposed to being something you have to click on to see? The only way I have figured out is to upload the image onto a blog and then copy the link. But that is a lot of trouble, and also makes reading the post dependent on an outside source, which may go out of existence at some point. Is there a way to actually download an image to this forum? Looking at what you have done, it is different from what I have done, and looks simpler.

In Queens, what is not found in the others is mostly the ermine pattern. Again, were there Queen cards like that?
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In the Knights, all I can find not in Conver, Chosson, or Tourcaty is the thing going down the horse's forehead.
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In the Pages, what is mainly of interest is the coin between the fingers of the Tourcaty, taken up by Jodorowsky. In the others, he just holds his belt.
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Last edited by mikeh on 06 Jun 2023, 10:57, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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mikeh wrote: 26 May 2023, 11:19 I have a question, Steve. How do you attach a file so that it shows up in the post, as opposed to being something you have to click on to see?
Sometimes when I attach a file it shows up in the post anyway, I am not sure of the why or wherefores, I have tried place in line and not & that doesn't seem to make much difference as to whether it shows up in the post in the post or not, it is somewhat random but usually it doesn't. If it doesn't, which is usually the case, then I click on the link to the file and then copy the link from the address bar, edit post and paste the link between {img /img} brackets. There is probably an easier, more efficient way, but I don't know what it is.

ps: I haven't the time right now to search as I'm off out, but the coin in the air for the King I have seen on some Italian decks if I recall right, I'll check later if you haven't already found any examples.

edited to add, from a very quick search of the BM, here are some, all Italian, I'll provide some details later:
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Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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mikeh wrote: 26 May 2023, 11:19 Turning to the court cards, I'll start with Coins. They are again based overall on Conver but with details viewable in Chosson and Tourcaty. On the King, the only features I can't find are (a) the coin floating in the air on the King of Coins; (b) the ermine pattern; and (c) the curved lines just below it.
Most examples of the coin in the air are Italian, but there is also the CF Carrajat of Chamberry, engraved by AG Zoya [an Italian!?] originally for a Swiss cardmaker of Coppet, which has the curved lines too, and also a pattern, albeit of Fleur-de-Lys instead of ermine, the Queen has an ermine pattern on one side, and the fleur-de-lys on the other. The Swiss cardmaker Hans Buolman however, has the ermine pattern, but not the coin in the air or curvy lines:

Carrajat top 2, Buolman bottom 2:
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Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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Re: The door on the Tower.

Jacob Jerger of Bescanson modeled his cards on those of Francois Isnard of Strasbourg but with his own additions, such as adding a door to the tower with a crescent moon[?] that is not far from JodoCam's 'leaf' design. Haven't seen anything with the three steps, but as a reader interested in visual links between cards, maybe he added the three steps from the right tower of the Moon card? The door would connect it with the left tower.

[Note: The Jerger deck, as produced by Reynalt, Blanche & last by Kirchner, is among the historical decks on the Camoin site - the similarity of the 'leaf' design is more noticeable with these due to the deterioration of the prints due to the age of the woodblocks.]
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Last edited by SteveM on 29 May 2023, 07:15, edited 5 times in total.

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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mikeh wrote: 22 May 2023, 23:51 Jodorowsky's source for the Popess is Conver again (or a similar TdMII), except for the egg (lower right of the left-hand card). Below, I put the restoration by Marseille Tarot Heritage to the right of Jodorowsky. It seems to me that Jodorowsky once claimed that he discovered the egg in a mold that Camoin had. But I do not see such an egg in any early Popess, nor do I when I looked at the mold he provides of the Conver,
Searching online for the egg I came across a blog [link below] that mentioned the Bernadin Suzanne, so I took a look and it is the closest I have seen [but not overly convincing]. I also took a look at the Joseph Feautrier, as Suzanne seems to have used it as a model [they both have the same birds with chicks motif on the two of cups].

Note. The Bernadin Suzanne is among the historical decks at the Camoin site, though he seems to think that he is a woman thinking I presume Suzanne is the first name rather than his surname. Nicolas Conver was a witness to his wedding in 1824.

Of Joseph Feautrier, (1717-178.) BnF says:

Birth:1717-08-29, Jouques (Bouches-du-Rhône)
Death:Marseille (Bouches-du-Rhône)
Period of activity:1754-1782

Marchand-cartier active in Marseille, parish of Saint-Ferréol, from 1753 to 1782 approximately. - Garçon-cartier in 1745 in Bordeaux, perhaps with the master-cartier François Choiseau. - Son of Mathieu Feautrier and Marie-Anne Elisabeth Ricard. - Wife Françoise Chosson, daughter of Marseille merchant-cartier François Chosson, September 1, 1754 (parish of Saint-Ferréol). -His son Joseph Mathieu Ignace is a merchant-cartier in turn. - Died probably between 1786 and 1792.

And of Bernardin Suzanne, (1790-1868) :

Birth:1790-04-30, Aubagne (Bouches-du-Rhône)
Death:1868-01-31, Marseille (Bouches-du-Rhône)
Period of activity:1816-1868

Marchand-cartier active in Marseille between 1816 and 1868. - Son of the cartier Jean-Baptiste Suzanne, died in 1793, and Françoise Verdier. Married Rose Marie Denise Arnaud September 23, 1816 in Marseille. Widower, he remarried Marie Aune on April 24 1824, in the presence of witnesses Louis Germain Bent, dealer of prints, and Marius Conver, card maker (actually the Marseille cartier Nicolas Conver). - At his death, the declarant is Pierre Jaillet, cartier.

Here is a closeup of the two:
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Here is the blog:
http://eltarot78-elwalich.blogspot.com/ ... /aves.html

ps: Tarot Marseille Heritage has reproduced both of these decks.

For the Feautrier see here:
https://www.tarot-de-marseille-heritage ... r1762.html

For the Suzanne:
https://www.tarot-de-marseille-heritage ... .html#haut