Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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I am in a tarot book group currently reading Jodorowsky's Way of the Tarot, as translated from the French of 1998. He says that the deck he and Camoin produced is an authentic "restoration" of the original Tarot, which of course for him is the Tarot de Marseille (never mind the absurdity of that claim). He mentions a hand-painted Tarot de Marseille he found in a shop in Mexico City as his guide to the colors (p. 16), but he has never to my knowledge ever showed images of it to see for ourselves. Otherwise, looking at surviving Tarot de Marseille decks, it is readily apparent that his is not any one of them, even disregarding the colors added by stencil to the woodcuts. The closest is the Conver 1760, but he by no means sticks to its designs. So my question is, where do his variations from that deck come from? - I do not mean the colors, which are fairly close to Conver's in any event, but the black lines beneath. He says (p. 15) that they come from various historical decks, which had one aspect or other of the original designs. By overlaying the images using "powerful computers," he and Camoin were able to reconstruct the originals. So I have been trying to track down these variations in detail in the historical sources. They are hardly details that can be laid on top of one another to produce a single image. But it would be nice at least to see what he would have worked from, and whether it is true that all of them come from historical sources.

I will start with the Bateleur, followed by the Aces, then the Popess, followed by the Twos, and so on.

I find two ways in which Jodo's Bateleur differs from the Conver and the other TdMII's: (1) the dice; and (2) the knife that has a loop in it. I can find a precedent for dice - they are in Noblet, although with different numbers exposed and in different places on the table. Are there historical versions with the right numbers or the looped knife?
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For the Ace of Swords, Jodorowsky basically used Conver, but on the left side he appropriated the ray pattern of the TdMI, as in Dodal, on the right below.
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For the Ace of Batons, Jodorowsky used Conver mostly, but added a leaf or branch feature from a TdMI design that goes back to 1639 (Vachier, then Rolichon). His source was probably Dodal, which I present here for comparison. On the bottom left of the card he again borrowed from the TdMI ray pattern, changing their direction.

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Jodorowsky's source for the Popess is Conver again (or a similar TdMII), except for the egg (lower right of the left-hand card). Below, I put the restoration by Marseille Tarot Heritage to the right of Jodorowsky. It seems to me that Jodorowsky once claimed that he discovered the egg in a mold that Camoin had. But I do not see such an egg in any early Popess, nor do I when I looked at the mold he provides of the Conver, https://en.camoin.com/tarot/Tarot-Templ ... onver.html.
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In the 2s, the main anomaly is in the 2 of Cups. Jodorowsky finds a phoenix there, flanked by two angels. I cannot find any such version of the card historically. (I can for the 4 of Cups, which I will post later, but even it doesn't have the angels.) Relative to the Conver (middle below), there is the anomaly of the dolphins' (he erroneously calls them fishes) tongues. The only historical example of tongues I can find is Noblet (at right), but otherwise fairly different.
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Another oddity is that for the 2 of Coins, he claims that the earliest printed version is 1471, hence the date on the card (along with the date of his own deck). The earliest I have found with a date is the 1499 card found in the Sforza Castle, by the Milanese card maker Paolino da Castelletto documented 1494-1513 (Kaplan vol. 2 p. 289). I don't know of any for 1471. In general, the design follows Conver, at right.
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I'll stop for now, in hopes that people can add something. I don't have many decks, and online they don't show many pip cards. What I am doing is trying to see how much is his imagination or invention and how much is actually in one or another of the historical decks.

Note: a couple of hours after posting, I changed what I had said about the tongues. I had not found a historical example, but I had overlooked Noblet.
Note added still later: for some great answers to my questions, see SteveM's posts below.
Last edited by mikeh on 06 Jun 2023, 02:31, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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mikeh wrote: 22 May 2023, 23:51
In the 2s, the main anomaly is in the 2 of Cups. Jodorowsky finds a phoenix there, flanked by two angels. I cannot find any such version of the card historically. (I can for the 4 of Cups, which I will post later, but even it doesn't have the angels.) Relative to the Conver (middle below), there is the anomaly of the dolphins' (he erroneously calls them fishes) tongues. The only historical example of tongues I can find is Noblet (at right), but otherwise fairly different.

In 1723 Jean-Francoise Tourcaty registered as his sign the figure of a phoenix on a woodpile with ermine ground, the motto 'je renais', supported by two angels with a crown -- parts of which we may see on the 4 of coins and the 2 of cups of the Tourcaty Tarot de Marseille type II* 1745 deck, and also on the Marseille Amphoux-Arnoux, An X (Sept 1801-Sept 1802), which is a copy of the Tourcaty [possibly from the same but adapted molds, I haven't looked at them close enough to be sure though]. Here is the AA [source BnF], which is clearer than the samples I've seen of the Tourcaty itself:
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And here from the Tourcaty [also at the BnF]** :
TourcatyPhoenix.jpg TourcatyPhoenix.jpg Viewed 2445 times 112.79 KiB
*Jean-Francois Tourcaty fils also produced a Tarot de Marseille 1 type deck, possibly originally used by his father c.1700/1730. Discovered by Philippe Camoin and part of the Camoin collection since 2011.
** There is also a partial deck of the Tourcaty at the BM, which includes the two of cups.
Last edited by SteveM on 03 Jun 2023, 11:56, edited 3 times in total.

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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mikeh wrote: 22 May 2023, 23:51
I find two ways in which Jodo's Bateleur differs from the Conver and the other TdMII's: (1) the dice; and (2) the knife that has a loop in it. I can find a precedent for dice - they are in Noblet, although with different numbers exposed and in different places on the table. Are there historical versions with the right numbers or the looped knife?
The Frantz Antoni Buolman, engraved by Hans Buolman, has a loopy knife, as does the Carajat deck engraved by A G Zoya:
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Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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download/file.php?id=2689Thanks very much, Steve, two less mysteries. Tourcaty didn't come up when I was searching for "2 of Cups". But actually, I see that both cards are online in Gallica, https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... r/f71.item, although not as clear as your images. I have never even heard of your card makers with the curled knife.

I will continue. Jodorowsky's Empress and 3s look basically the same as Conver's to me, minus some variation in color, using both light blue and dark blue. Conver printings typically use one or the other, but not both.

In the Emperor, Jodorowsky has inserted another egg, this time beneath the eagle's tail. He says that shows it is a female eagle. I have found no such egg in any historical deck. The closest match to his is Conver (2nd from left). Admittedly there is a small white spot where the part of the egg would be, but no lines outlining any egg. Above the four Emperor cards, I have put the detail of the shield from two printings of the Conver, the one in Gallica, c. 1810, and another of 1853 or so reproduced by Lo Scarabeo recently. Nor are there lines for an egg in any other versions I have found: 3rd and 4th below are Chosson and Heri. I also do not know where the arrowhead design on the left shoulder comes from. You can see where the Conver printings have mistaken the notches in a jousting shield for a continuation of the red coloring on the top. Previous versions did not do that.
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Steve posted the source for Jodorowsky's 4 of Cups, with a phoenix in place of the three fleur-de-lyses that are seen most of the time. e.g. Conver's, center below. A phoenix is also found on Claude Burdel's 1751 version, right, although the surrounding decoration is different.
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On Jodo's Pope card, there is a blue "dagger" shape extending from the hand next to the acolyte on our right, with a circle beneath it, divided into dark and light halves. In Conver (2nd from left below), there is a crease in the fabric of the Pope's robe that corresponds to that dagger, less prominent than in Jodo's design. On the earlier TdM2s by Heri (3rd from left, from Tarot of Marseille Heritage) there is part of that same crease, which could be imagined as part of a dagger. I can find nothing historically corresponding to the circle below it. Another thing is the wall behind the pope, with a kind of band at the top connecting the two columns. This is found in Noblet, a TdM1 (far right).
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On the Chariot card, I cannot find anything in the historical cards corresponding to the stars Jodo put in one of the upper banners (below are Jodorowsky, Conver, Tourcaty, and Heri). I also cannot find the red vertical lines down the foreheads of the horses. Also, the shield on the front of the chariot usually had the initials of the card maker. That detail is replaced by a tear-shaped mark, for which I find no precedent. Tourcaty seems to have been the model for the Charioteer's face. Jodorowsky seems to have used details from a variety of versions for his card to get the many lines that may have been painted over by others, especially in the breastplate. Heri shows most of them (and 4 circles on one where Jodo has 3). I am puzzled by what look like straps supporting from above the figure's left lower arm.
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Last edited by mikeh on 06 Jun 2023, 02:57, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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mikeh wrote: 23 May 2023, 11:36 On Jodo's Pope card, there is a blue "dagger" shape extending from the hand next to the acolyte on our right, with a circle beneath it, divided into dark and light halves... I can find nothing historically corresponding to the circle below it...
I think I have seen the teardrop on the shield of the chariot on another deck but can't remember on which deck off-hand, for the circle on the knee area of the Pope see the Payen 1713:
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Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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Thanks, Steve. Jodorowsky's idea that originally the circle and the "dagger" appeared together, the first below the second, seems far-fetched.

I turn to Justice. Other versions (below, Conver, then Chosson, then Heri) can account for most aspects: Conver for the chair, Chosson for the face and the colors; Heri shows the lines beneath the paint. But where do the arrowhead-like things come from?
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The Hermit, the Wheel, Strength, and Death look fine to me, compared with Conver.

On Temperance the basic design is Conver, but the little tail (or snake, as he calls it) at the bottom seems to be from Dodal (3rd from left). The spikes and circle below the neck are visible in Chosson (4th). The face is more like Chosson, too.
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The Devil seems a combination of Conver (2nd from left) and Dodal (3rd). The three little dots on the left-hand imp are Chosson, too (4th). The crescent-moon breasts are on Madenie and Burdel, at least, shown on Tarot of Marseille Heritage's Gallery. I downloaded the Burdel (5th) from the Minneapolis Museum of Art's site. I can't make out the designs on the pedestal on the Conver; they are clearer on the others. The faces on the imps may be inspired by the Burdel, but if so he's embellished them a bit.
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Last edited by mikeh on 06 Jun 2023, 10:05, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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mikeh wrote: 23 May 2023, 23:57
I turn to Justice. Other versions (below, Conver, then Chosson, then Heri) can account for most aspects: Conver for the chair, Chosson for the face and the colors; Heri shows the lines beneath the paint. But where do the arrowhead-like things come from?
The Ermine pattern can be found on the deck of the Swiss cardmaker Hans Buolman, though it is on the other side, as the image is flipped horizontally in relation to the others. The deck was also published by his son, Frantz Antoni Buolman, and according to the BnF : "The woods of this tarot are engraved in 1752. Blanck and Tschann, cartiers of Colmar, Print them from 1775, before transmitting their funds and models to Guillaume Mann, active from 1792." Hans Buolman engraved several decks of different types [such as Marseille, Besancon], watch out for his monogram HB. The pattern is also on the C. F. Carrajat of Chamberry, engraved by AG Zoya. According to the BnF CF Carrajat was : "Marchand-cartier in Chambéry active from 1786 to 1805, parish of Saint-Léger. - Son of Jospeh Carrajat. - Married Claudine Gonnon on October 16, 1786, after signing a dowry contract between the two spouses. - His son, Jean-Claude, born May 24, 1791, takes over his father's activity around 1815". Of AG Zoya it says: "Italian wood engraver active between 1748 and 1755, when he engraved a game tarot for a merchant-cartier of Coppet in Switzerland. - His signature appears on the tarot of the Carrajat father and son who recover the woods originally engraved for this Swiss cartier. - He is the head of a card factory in Piedmont Italian in 1747-1748."
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Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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mikeh wrote: 23 May 2023, 23:57
On Temperance the basic design is Conver, but the little tail (or snake, as he calls it) at the bottom seems to be from Dodal (3rd from left)...
I think it is closer to the Payen 1713, as that also has the acorn shape in the bottom right-hand corner [and we also have the example of his using the Payen 1713 in the case of the Pope]. Also note that beneath the colouring on the Payen at her collar area you can see a circle and spiky pattern, similar but a little bit different to the chosson:
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