Huck wrote: 12 May 2023, 09:37 The command ...
site:a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM murari bari
... at your browser address line ...
... will guide you to material about Murari in Bari, which is in the archive of the WWW playing card museum ....

... but I think, no Tarocchi decks. Where are you in Italy, if I may ask you that? And what are your interests in the field of Tarot History?

I'm in Umbria but been living in Rome for the last 18 years, and going there quite often.
I'm an africanist archaeologist, so no direct connections to Tarot History, but I've always been fascinated by symbolism, been painting Tarots for a while, been reading I-Ching for my whole life and my sister is a very good Tarot reader.
Some months ago I got interested in Tarots again, after many years, and I went looking for my old deck (the Oswald Wirth one): and some days later I stumbled on this Murari deck. It totally fascinated me, being so different from the usual Tarots. And so I started doing some research.
At first I hoped to find the two missing cards, but then I came to realize how difficult it would be, given the quite rare nature of this specific deck.
Now I'm hooked, and have to know everything about these Tarots!

kukushka wrote: 12 May 2023, 11:54 I'm in Umbria but been living in Rome for the last 18 years, and going there quite often.
I'm an africanist archaeologist, so no direct connections to Tarot History, but I've always been fascinated by symbolism, been painting Tarots for a while, been reading I-Ching for my whole life and my sister is a very good Tarot reader.
Some months ago I got interested in Tarots again, after many years, and I went looking for my old deck (the Oswald Wirth one): and some days later I stumbled on this Murari deck. It totally fascinated me, being so different from the usual Tarots. And so I started doing some research.
At first I hoped to find the two missing cards, but then I came to realize how difficult it would be, given the quite rare nature of this specific deck.
Now I'm hooked, and have to know everything about these Tarots!

Hm ... "African archeologist", is this archeology for Egypt or another place?
I've also some relations to I-Ching .... do you know this ...




Umbrien ... We had some discussion here about a deck made in Assissi with some similarities to the Rosenwald deck type. Perugia was als involved ... this is 15th or early 16th century.

Huck wrote: 12 May 2023, 15:21
Hm ... "African archeologist", is this archeology for Egypt or another place?
I've also some relations to I-Ching .... do you know this ...

Umbrien ... We had some discussion here about a deck made in Assissi with some similarities to the Rosenwald deck type. Perugia was als involved ... this is 15th or 1early 16th century.

1. No Egypt, I work mainly in the Sahara, though it's quite hard to go there. My interests are prehistoric archaeology, rock art and nomadic populations.
2. Never seen that image, it's very interesting, thank you!
3. I'm near Perugia, less than 1-hour car trip.

I've found something ..

https://www.ebay.it/itm/374219740364

There are totally 8 pictures. you can download all.


I don't see a queen of cups ... I don't see cup courts, I see arrows.



The back of this deck is different, your deck looks older.

For the I-Ching picture

... here is a large edition

http://trionfi.com/001/ichingsphere.jpg

... here is text, that explains the picture and the arrangement

http://trionfi.com/tarot/new-themes/sepher-yetzirah/

... if you have questions, ask ... :-)

**************

I remember, that Pica de Mirandola was in Perugia in 1486. This was a deciding year.

Huck wrote: 12 May 2023, 16:13 I've found something ..

https://www.ebay.it/itm/374219740364

The back of this deck is different, your deck looks older.

Yeah, it's the same design, BUT:

- the guy is definitely scamming on the price!
- I also think that mine are older, they are in such a good shape also;
- I'm checking the pictures and it looks like they don't have this "false mirror effect".

kukushka wrote: 12 May 2023, 16:07 1. No Egypt, I work mainly in the Sahara, though it's quite hard to go there. My interests are prehistoric archaeology, rock art and nomadic populations.
2. Never seen that image, it's very interesting, thank you!
3. I'm near Perugia, less than 1-hour car trip.

My recent interest are Egyptian star constellations There are some internet sources, which claim, that the Orion constellation was also called Osiris (before it was called Orion or later ?). The information doesn't look solid.
I'm interested in the constellation "Hare" or "Lepus", which is located near the feet of the imagined Orion. Orion is claimed to cooperate with two dogs constellations Canis maior and Canis minor. Orion has in myth the profession hunter and the whole metaconstellation Orion + 2 dogs and th Hare are seen as a big hunting scene.
The Egyptian view has Osiris as Orion, Isis as Sirius in canis maior (dog star, most bright star at heaven), Anubis as small dog and Lepus is the "boat of Osiris". But there was also a Hare in Egypt, and this was connected to the Nile city Hermopolis, the gods Hermes and Thot and a hare goddess.

Do you know something about the early star system by your nomadic studies ? I think, that knowledge about stars can be of some value in the old deserts.

Huck wrote: 13 May 2023, 08:57
Do you know something about the early star system by your nomadic studies ? I think, that knowledge about stars can be of some value in the old deserts.

Actually, and this is really interesting because I would have thought the same exact thing, we have no evidence of interest in stars or constellations in ancient Saharan populations (speaking of the last 10.000 years approx.). Thousands of paintings and inscriptions, and never anything that resembles a night sky. We also have no modern indications of the use of stars for orientation, even if ethnographic sources are always incomplete.
Nowadays, I have seen people move in the desert using other markers (sand dunes, wells, changes in the landscape, things only desert people can recognize), and they move only during day time (still don't know why, since nights in the desert are incredibly calm and it would be easy to travel, expecially during full moon, when you can see clearly).
But Egyptians are quite different from all the nomadic populations that I have been studying, and their interest in stars has always been prominent.

Interesting discussion between the two of you, about Saharan nomads and stars.

I have managed to scan the Murari deck in the LeTarot collection (now kept by Lo Scarabeo in Turino), as published in Vitali and Zanetti's Il Tarocchino di Bologna. Here is their Love card, upright and reversed (the two on the left) compared with yours (the two on the right):
I think it is fairly clear that they are printed from the same lithographic plate (or plates?). I don't know the process, or why the coloration is slightly different. The cartomantic keyword written on the left-hand cards is "amore".

Likewise for the Moon and the Angel: Here the cartomantic words are "sera" and "angelo".

Here are the Stars and Queen of Cups from Vitali and Zanetti's book, upright and upside down. For your reference, below are all the cards from this deck printed in the book. There are 45 in all, apparently the standard number in Bolognese cartomancy, even if the precise cards used varied slightly. Perhaps you will find some indication of the year 1920; I have not. The tax stamp on your Ace of Denari is not very clear, so I have added a high-resolution image of that card.

I had never looked for differences between the upright and reversed images. Thanks very much for pointing out this feature. I had also not seen the verso images. Vitali and Zanetti say that the "figura femminile: is "Italia". A special feature of the tarocchino is its "Moretti", four of them, which replace the imperial and papal cards. They carry either one spear or three arrows.

If you want to know more about the Bolognese tarocchino and its place in Bolognese culture, besides Andrea Vitali and Terry Zanetti's book, which includes cartomancy with that deck, I recommend a book edited by Andrea and me that came out last year.
https://www.museodeitarocchi.com/store/ ... -the-tarot.
It originally was published in Italian a couple of years earlier, but the English edition is much augmented and improved. Cartomancy is discussed only in terms of an 18th century document. All the source material is in both English and Italian. There are also other books on Bolognese cartomancy.

mikeh wrote: 13 May 2023, 13:00
For your reference, below are all the cards from this deck printed in the book. There are 45 in all, apparently the standard number in Bolognese cartomancy, even if the precise cards used varied slightly. Perhaps you will find some indication of the year 1920; I have not. The tax stamp on your Ace of Denari is not very clear, so I have added a high-resolution image of that card.

I had never looked for differences between the upright and reversed images. Thanks very much for pointing out this feature. I had also not seen the verso images. Vitali and Zanetti say that the "figura femminile: is "Italia". A special feature of the tarocchino is its "Moretti", four of them, which replace the imperial and papal cards. They carry either one spear or three arrows.

If you want to know more about the Bolognese tarocchino and its place in Bolognese culture, besides Andrea Vitali and Terry Zanetti's book, which includes cartomancy with that deck, I recommend a book edited by Andrea and me that came out last year.
https://www.museodeitarocchi.com/store/ ... -the-tarot.
It originally was published in Italian a couple of years earlier, but the English edition is much augmented and improved. Cartomancy is discussed only in terms of an 18th century document. All the source material is in both English and Italian. There are also other books on Bolognese cartomancy.

THANK YOU SO MUCH!
This is exactly my deck: so, 1920 is the right year. In later productions (e.g. 1931), Cav. Guglielmo Murari becomes Comm. Guglielmo Murari, and the differences between upright and reversed images disappear. I'm wondering when they adopted this feature, why, and why they didn't keep it. I wonder if it's useful to the card game or just to divination practices...
I knew that the standard number in Bolognese cartomancy is 50 (but I have also found different versions of the cards that you have to exclude, as you say).
The female figure on the "verso" is not Italy, but probably the embodiment of the city where they produced the cards, Bari.
Thanks also for your book suggestion, I will definitely buy it, alongside with some other ones that might be interesting about Tarocchino bolognese.