Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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The Italian deck by Nicola Novaro c1844 of Oneglia, through its relationship to the Payen 1713, shares many of our elements, with additional elements more custom to Italian decks, such as the floating coin on the King of Coins.

Here are four of the cards to show its relationship to the Payen, the serpentine hem & 'acorn' of Temperance, the leaf on the Ace of Batons, the divided circle on the knee of the Pope, the wavy sword / baton on the Queen of Cups:
[source:BM, link below]
Image
source: BM
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collectio ... 96-0501-17
mikeh wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 07:18
I can't see anything on that mold, except tail feathers, vegetation, and/or the lower edge of the shield.

Perhaps you are seeing something I don't. Here is a larger view.
I see it pretty clearly !?

I've tried to highlight the two curved lines that make up the edges of the ovoid shape, I'm just using paint and don't have the tools to make it exact:
Image
mikeh wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 07:18
Perhaps you are seeing something I don't. Here is a larger view.
4-Jodo-Conver-Chosson-lowershieldCompressed.jpg

Why this last combination of images doesn't show in the post, whereas the previous one did, even though of higher resolution, is another mystery, which to me is at least as much worth solving.
If the attachment doesn't show up in the post, click on it, copy the address bar, edit your post and paste the address between image (img) tags, like this:
Image
Last edited by SteveM on 04 Jun 2023, 08:59, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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mikeh wrote: 04 Jun 2023, 23:25 Your highlighting of the lines on the mold didn't show up, Steve, at least on my computer. Could you try it again?
What's the point? You either see it or you don't. I can see it. Maybe for those of us who do see it, it is merely pareidolia, but having seen it, I can't not see it. The question was, what are C&Js sources, did Camoin see it, and convince Jodorowsky to see it, apparently so: is it justified, or merely pareidolia? That is a different question. The Camoin woodcut, and the differences between the lines in various prints, suggested an ovoid outline, that Camoin interpreted as being originally an egg; is he right? Fuck knows: but that is his openly admitted source, and the answer to the question [what were his sources], whether he made an accurate or justified assessment of his sources or not.

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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Yes, you're right. I suppose I can see the ovoid line at the left, part of which doesn't show up on the cards. It is longer than would be expected of a blade of grass or a feather. The curved line at the right consistent with the line on the left seems to me not quite as long as they indicate, but that this mold is the source, as they do say, is clear enough.

Thanks for all your help and expertise in identifying the sources. A few details still remain unidentified, it seems to me, including:

1. The tear-shaped insignia on the front of the Chariot and the stars on the canopy.
2. The layout of the 3 dice on the Bateleur (different from Noblet, but corresponding to the positions of 3 coins on some decks), and the particular spots shown.
3. The crescent moon on the Fool's hair; the curved (as opposed to straight) lines on the fabric on his neck and upper back (these might be on a mold).
4. The pattern displayed on the panel next to the King of Batons' left leg. Camoin identifies it as Masonic, but not a deck that has it.
5. The left earflap on the King of Cups, as opposed to nothing or hair.

If you think of anything, I hope you will add it. And correct me if I have missed something.

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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SteveM wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:16
C.F. Carrajat* 1786/1805 of Chambery using woodblocks engraved by AG Zoya 1747/1755 (Italy/Piedmont) originally made for an unknown Swiss cardmaker of Coppet:
In volume 2 of Allemagne, an AG Zoya engraved deck is illustrated as being published by Joseph Fautrier of Marseille, active 1753/93 :
Image
SteveM wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:16
Unidentified:
the earflap on the left side of the King of Cups head;
There are earflaps on both sides in the Noblet:
Image

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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On the earflap: of course! Thanks.

For others' ease of reference, the Chariot is on p. 35 of Allemagne, Cartes a Jouer, vol 2 (in archive.org).

Could there be any relationship between this Fautrier (active 1753- c. 1792) and the Feautrier previously described, same city, same beginning time of activity in Marseille (but active elsewhere from 1745) and retiring earlier (1782 vs. 1792)?
Josephe Feautrier* [b1717-d1786/92] of Marseille:

A circular shape in the position of the C&J Popesse egg;

*Marchand-cartier active in Marseille, parish of Saint-Ferréol, from 1753 to 1782 approximately. Garçon-cartier in 1745 in Bordeaux, perhaps with the master-cartier François Choiseau. Son of Mathieu Feautrier and Marie-Anne Elisabeth Ricard. Wife Françoise Chosson, daughter of Marseille merchant-cartier François Chosson, September 1, 1754 (parish of Saint-Ferréol). His son Joseph Mathieu Ignace is a merchant-cartier in turn. Died probably between 1786 and 1792.
Address:Marseille: 1754. - Thubaneau Street
Address:Marseille: 1782. - Rue du Paradis

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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mikeh wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 02:13 On the earflap: of course! Thanks.

For others' ease of reference, the Chariot is on p. 35 of Allemagne, Cartes a Jouer, vol 2 (in archive.org).

Could there be any relationship between this Fautrier (active 1753- c. 1792) and the Feautrier previously described, same city, same beginning time of activity in Marseille (but active elsewhere from 1745) and retiring earlier (1782 vs. 1792)?
Josephe Feautrier* [b1717-d1786/92] of Marseille:

A circular shape in the position of the C&J Popesse egg;

*Marchand-cartier active in Marseille, parish of Saint-Ferréol, from 1753 to 1782 approximately. Garçon-cartier in 1745 in Bordeaux, perhaps with the master-cartier François Choiseau. Son of Mathieu Feautrier and Marie-Anne Elisabeth Ricard. Wife Françoise Chosson, daughter of Marseille merchant-cartier François Chosson, September 1, 1754 (parish of Saint-Ferréol). His son Joseph Mathieu Ignace is a merchant-cartier in turn. Died probably between 1786 and 1792.
Address:Marseille: 1754. - Thubaneau Street
Address:Marseille: 1782. - Rue du Paradis
I think they are probably one and the same, yes.

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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mikeh wrote: 02 Jun 2023, 11:04 Good eye as usual, Steve, on the wavy sword. I am not sure about the third die in Vandenboor, if you mean the one on the other side of the table. It might be a domino, as it is divided into two halves. One of them is blank, which was not usually true of dice. So far, only Noblet is a clear case of similarity, it seems to me.
Francois Heri TdB, 1730 [another Swiss deck!]

Note: the initials on the shield of the chariot in this deck are HB, possibly Hans Buolman.
Image