Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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Thanks for filling in all those blanks, Steve, such as the ermine; very helpful. So the egg does have a precedent of sorts, although quite late in the Popess's woodcut career.

Let me put my problem about uploading images this way. In order to have them show, I have to first upload them to a blog I created and then post the link here. I can also upload them here, but I have to first reduce their size, and even then they don't show. So I am doing both, but it takes a lot of time. Is there a simpler way?
[Added later: In a later post, Steve made it clear to me how to do it, and I have gone through and redone the posts accordingly.]

I will return to the cards. For the King of Batons, I find all the details in Chosson, Conver, or Tourcaty except for two things. The green spot above his left wrist is rounder than in those cards, and the panel below, in its lower right corner, next to his lower left leg, has a design lacking in them.
Image
In the Queen of Batons, I find all the details in Chosson or Tourcaty except the odd pattern in the lower right corner of the card.
Image
Added later: something vaguely similar is in Payen:
Image

In the Knight of Batons, I find all the details in Chosson or Tourcaty except the prominent knob on the lower right of the stick, which may be covered up by paint but is shown in Dodal.
Image
For the Page of Batons, the dark blue blobs on the left side of the ground do not precisely correspond to what is on any of the others. The Chosson is the closest, having two, but the top one isn't circular.
Image
Tourcaty and Conver are on Gallica, Chosson, at https://tarotchoco.quebecblogue.com/, Dodals on Google.
Last edited by mikeh on 07 Jun 2023, 01:27, edited 2 times in total.

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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Here are some notes on what there is so far, with links to various decks.

Nicolas Conver* active between 1809 to 1833 in Marseille: Camoin & Jodorowsky's [C&J] primary model, with some details suggestively emphasized, e.g., what could be a fold of cloth or flesh in Conver becomes a tail in the C&J Sun card [see also Chosson & Tourcaty). It is also the source for the C&J egg beneath the eagle, which is clearer in the woodcut than the cards as the full extent of the lines are not in the prints, in which it is further obscured by the colouring.

*Born December 31, 1784 in Marseille, died March 26, 1833. Son of Mathieu Conver and Félicité Sauze. Active as Marchand-cartier in Marseille between 1809 and 1833. Married to Madeleine Anne Daniel between 1815 and 1820. Dated 1760, the "Tarot Conver" is, however, attributable neither to an ancestor nor to a homonym of Nicolas Conver: the initials of the engraver "V T" are on the shield of the Chariot. At his death, his widow remarried on April 1, 1834, Crisante Bernard Ramond Mouren and runs the card factory, first under the name of "Conver", then, from 1840, under that of "Veuve Conver" (Nicolas) et Cie". She sells her fund and the name Conver, but not the shop, in 1857 to the Levenq brothers, who adopt the name "Levenq de Conver".

Address:Marseille: 1809-1833. - rue Noailles, n° 7
Source: BnF


Francois Chosson* active between 1734-1756 in Marseille: An additional source clarifying several details of the Conver plus some details not in the Conver;

star-lady's face & raindrop shapes on the ground of the Star;
the bottom edge of the tomb on Judgment;
the little ball (a fallen bell?) beneath the Fool's legs; [also on the Tourcaty]


*Born in 1700 in Saint-Bonnet-de-Chavagne,, Isère, died 9 December 1773 in Marseille. Son of Claude Chosson & Clauda Pain. Married to Marie Mouries on May 26, 1729 in Marseille. Marchand Cartier active in Marseille between 1734-1756. Dated 1672, the initials "G S" on the shield of the chariot on the deck published by Chosson are possibly those of the Maitre Cartier Guillaume Sellon, active in Marseille at that period. His daughter Francoise married Marseille-based cardmaker Joseph Feautrier in 1754. His brother Antoin Chosson [b1689, d1767), Master Cardmaker & Cardmaker to the King, was active in Vienne, Isere, France c1740-1745.

Source: Geneanet



Jean Noblet active between 1643/1681 of Paris:

three dice on table of Bateleur; [see also, TdB 1730 of Francois Heri]
ermine pattern on the shoulder of the Emperor;
the 'knife' across the Pope's knee & the arch & banded pattern of parallel lines between the columns of his chair;
ear-flaps on each side of the King of Cups;


Jean Dodal active between 1701/1732 of Lyon:

"eye"-shaped navel on the figure of the Star [Payen is similar but more rounded];
points inside of stars on the Star;
the dressed forelock on the knight's horses possibly suggested the pattern on their forehead in C&J.


Born on November 27, 1673 in Saint-Didier-au-Mont d'Or, died April 14, 1732 in Lyon. September 1, 1700: Marriage between Cartier Jean Dodat, the son of labourer Antoinne Dodat & his wife Anne Liot of Saint-Didier-au-Mont d'Or (Rhône) & Dominique Lemaitre, daughter of Marchand-Cartier Jean Murat. June 17, 1721: Interment of "Dominique Lemaitre aged 55 years, wife of Jean Dodar [sic] Merchant Cartier". July 10, 1721: The marriage of "Jean Dodar [sic] merchant cartier widower and of Catherine Baujolin daughter of deceased Jean Baujolin merchant cartier". Jean Dodat is recorded as deputy of the cardmakers of Lyon for December 1701, 1702, 1703, 1707, 1717, and 1718. He had three children with his first wife and seven with his second, three of his sons from his marriage with Catherine Beaujolin carried on in the cardmaking trade and served as deputies of the cardmakers of Lyon:

Jean Dodat [aîné] for 1762, 1763, 1769, 1773-1782.
Etienne Dodat for 1755,1759, 1760.
Pierre Dodat [cadet] for 1768

Several variations of his surname occur in the Parish records and other documents of the time, the variation Dodal & Daudal appear on the registrations of baptism for four of his children in the 1720s:

September 14, 1724: Jean Etienne DODAL "son of Jean DODAL master cartier and of Catherine Beaujolin his wife"
January 1726: Marie DODAL "daughter of Jean DODAL master cartier and of Catherine Gaujelin [sic] his wife"
May 5, 1727: Etienne DODAL: "son of Jean DODAL master cartier and of Catherine Beaujelin [sic] his wife"
June 24, 1728: Antoine DAUDAL: "son of Jean DAUDAL Master cardmaker and of Catherine Beaujolin his wife"

Source: Municipal Archives of Lyon: Parish of Saint-Nizier.


Josephe Feautrier* [b1717-d1786/92] of Marseille:

A circular shape in the position of the C&J Popesse egg;

*Marchand-cartier active in Marseille, parish of Saint-Ferréol, from 1753 to 1782 approximately. Garçon-cartier in 1745 in Bordeaux, perhaps with the master-cartier François Choiseau. Son of Mathieu Feautrier and Marie-Anne Elisabeth Ricard. Wife Françoise Chosson, daughter of Marseille merchant-cartier François Chosson, September 1, 1754 (parish of Saint-Ferréol). His son Joseph Mathieu Ignace is a merchant-cartier in turn. Died probably between 1786 and 1792.
Address:Marseille: 1754. - Thubaneau Street
Address:Marseille: 1782. - Rue du Paradis
Source: BnF


His deck was the model for,

Bernadin Suzanne* 1790-1868 of Marseille:

A half-circular shape in the position of the C&J Popesse egg;

*Born April 30, 1790 in Aubagne, died January 31, 1868 in Marseille. Marchand-cartier active in Marseille between 1816 and 1868. Son of the cartier Jean-Baptiste Suzanne, died in 1793, and Françoise Verdier. Married Rose Marie Denise Arnaud September 23, 1816 in Marseille. Widower, he married Marie Aune on April 24 1824, in the presence of witnesses Louis Germain Bent, dealer of prints, and Marius Conver, card maker (actually the Marseille cartier Nicolas Conver).

Address:Marseille: 1868. - rue Vacon, n° 12
Address:Marseille: 1824. - rue de Noailles, n° 25
Address:Marseille: 1816. - rue Fontange, n° 15
Source: BnF


Jean-Francois Tourcaty* of Marseille:

phoenix on a pyre on the shield of the four of coins, and between two angels on the two of coins;
part of the flame & colour scheme of the tower on Maison-Dieu;
the plant beneath the wall on r/h side of the Sun;
the three equally spaced buttons on the straps of the Knight of Sword's skirt;
the little ball [fallen bell?] between the feet of the Fool [also on the Chosson];
the mound upon which the figure of the world stands.


The Phoenix on a Pyre is also on the Amphous-Arnoux deck, which is a copy of the Tourcaty, and the same is also on the cards of several Swiss cardmakers, e.g., Rochias, Schaer, Burdel families, but with different surroundings and with two trumpets.

Note: Tourcaty produced both a Type 1 and a Type 2, both are mentioned by Camoin.

*Marchand-cartier active in Marseille from 1723 to 1769. Son of the merchant-cartier Jean-François Tourcaty and Geneviève Deluy. Born between 1683 and 1687. First wife Claire Savine on May 17, 1712, parish La Major. Second wife Françoise Surian on May 28, 1726, Notre-Dame des Accoules parish.

Address:Marseille: 1723. - Petit-Mazeau Street. At the sign of the phoenix.
source: BnF



C.F. Carrajat* 1786/1805 of Chambery using woodblocks engraved by AG Zoya 1747/1755 (Italy/Piedmont) originally made for an unknown Swiss cardmaker of Coppet:

looped knife on the table of the Bateleur [a feature common to several Swiss decks];
floating coin of the King of Coins [a feature fairly common among Italian decks] & curved lines beneath chair;
ermine pattern on Justice;
ermine pattern on the Page of Swords;
the pattern of triangles on the hem of the King of Sword's skirt;
the frown and smile of the faces on the King of Sword's epaulets;


*Born on August 12, 1760, died on July 7,1805. Married Claudine Gonnon on October 16, 1786, their son, Jean-Claude, born May 24, 1791, takes over his father's activity around 1815.

Address:Chambéry: 1787. - rue Tupin
Source: BnF


Jean Payen 1713:
TdMI style pattern of rays on Ace of Swords; [Dodal is similar, as also Nicolas Rolichon 1601-1635/37 & Philip Vachier 1639]
leaf on the side of Baton and pattern of rays on Ace of Batons; [Dodal is similar, as also Nicolas Rolichon 1601-1635/37 & Philip Vachier 1639]
the acorn/circle on the knee of the Pope;
the serpentine shape on the hem of Temperance & acorn shape at the side, circle & spiky pattern beneath collar [see also, Chosson];
face on belly & eyes on knees of the Devil [see also, Dodal];
possibly the line on the forelock of the horses of the Chariot but exaggerated in C&J;
the solid area beneath knee of the figure of the Star [Dodal is similar];
the blue hand of the hermit holding the cane;
the river-like lines on the Sun [Dodal is similar];
the 'yod' droplets on Judgment [Dodal is similar];
the wavy sword/baton [?] on the Queen of Cups [as also Feautrier & Suzanne;


Pierre Madenie:
Crescent breasts of the Devil [see also, Burdel];

Jacob Jerger* of Besancon, active 1801/1845:

the door with its pattern on the tower of Maison-Dieu;

*Born in Kehl, Germany on July 7, 1777, died in Besançon April 4, 1860. Son of Gaspar Jerger and Françoise Spechtin, he married Antoinette Guénard, widow of the merchant-cartier Nicolas Labouret the 9 Thermidor Year IX in Besançon and thus takes over the fund of the latter. Wife in second marriage Jeanne-Claudine-Adélaïde Dagane and in third marriage Françoise-Laurence Desviruer. His factory was taken over in 1845 by Louis Charles Narcisse Renault, then in 1860 by Pierre-François Guyard, in 1875 by J. Blanche and finally in 1878 by Hermann Arnulf Kirchner, all of whom continue to make the "Jerger Tarot". - It says "owner" at his death.

Address:Besançon: 1820-1860. - Grande-Rue, No. 78
Source: BnF


Swiss cardmakers, e.g., Hans Buolman [and his son Frantz Antoine Buolman], Joseph Jaggi, Bernard Schaer: the curly knife on the table of the Bateleur [see also Carrajat] & the Ermine pattern on several cards, such as the King and Queen of Coins.

Unidentified:
the 'Lazos de Amor' [love bond/knot] on the lower-right panel of the King of Baton's chair;
no exact match for the blue blobs on the left side of the ground on the Page of Batons, Chosson has two, but the top one isn't circular;
the pattern in the bottom right corner of the Queen of Batons;
the circularity of the green gap between the Knight of Batons elbow & waist;
the tear-drop on the shield of the chariot - the Suzanne is closest but is diamond-shaped.
the 'cheerful' looking face of the figure on the right side of the card on the Sun card, who appears gloomy in other decks;

Abbreviations
BnF = Bibliothèque nationale de France
BM = British Museum
C&J - Camoin & Jodorowsky

LINKS:

Conver: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... k=42918;4

Chosson: https://tarotchoco.quebecblogue.com/

Dodal: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collectio ... 1-592-1-78

Tourcaty Type 2 : https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1 ... k=343349;2 - https://www.britishmuseum.org/collectio ... 1-568-1-58
see also, Amphoux-Arnoult: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... k=386268;0

Suzanne: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collectio ... 982-U-4597

Noblet: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... k=386268;0

Jerger: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... rk=21459;2
see also
Reynault: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... k=21459;2#
Blanche: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... k=536483;2
Kirchner: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... k=450646;0

Carrajat/Zoya: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... k=729617;2 - https://www.britishmuseum.org/collectio ... 706-9-1-78

Payen 1743 [pack of mixed editions with different backs, but I think some of them are not Payen]: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... 815454;4Fe
Incomplete deck at the Cary Collection: https://collections.library.yale.edu/catalog/32296376

Payen 1713 https://collections.library.yale.edu/catalog/32296393
See also: Nicola Novaro c1844 of Oneglia, Liguria, Italy: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collectio ... 96-0501-17

Feautrier - four packs of partial decks, no trumps: https://gallica.bnf.fr/services/engine/ ... 5725033%22

Feautrier Trumps: https://www.tarot-de-marseille-heritage ... r1762.html

Bernard Schaer incomplete deck: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collectio ... 6-0501-783
Jaggi incomplete 49/54: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collectio ... 6-0501-781

Trumps of the Pierre Madenie, Francois Heri, Francois Chosson, Jean-Baptiste Madenie, Francoise Tourcaty, Rochus Schar, Claude Burdel, Nicolas Conver, Jacques Rochias, Arnoux & Amphous, Bernardin Suzanne, Arnoult 1748 at the Tarot de Marseille Heritage Gallery:

https://www.tarot-de-marseille-heritage ... .html#haut

Edited to add subsequently mentioned details.
Last edited by SteveM on 25 Aug 2023, 01:24, edited 36 times in total.

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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SteveM wrote: 30 May 2023, 13:16
Josephe Feautrier* [b1717-d1786/92] of Marseille:

A circular shape in the position of the C&J Popesse egg;

His deck was the model for,

Bernadin Suzanne* 1790-1868 of Marseille:

A half-circular shape in the position of the C&J Popesse egg;

Jacob Jerger* of Besancon, active 1801/1845:

the door with its pattern on the tower of Maison-Dieu;
I came across Camoin's own book today [in Spanish]. The Feautrier & Suzanne decks are among the sources Camoin mentions himself, and he says: "It is in the Bernardin Suzanne Tarot, and not in that of Nicolas Conver, that a second half-ovoid shape appears, but this time in the Popess's card. In this game, this form goes unnoticed because it is hidden behind the surrounding green color. Remaining rigorous, nothing proves that it is an egg, since only a more or less half-rounded shape appears. And in fact, no one had spoken before the presence of an egg in this place." [google trans.]

The first 'ovoid' shape that appears is beneath the eagle's tail on the Conver woodblock, which he claims Jodorowsky did not believe him until he showed him it, and from the close-up picture in his book there is a shape there.

There is a preview of many pages of his book on his site where we can see he illustrates how the C&J merges the Tarot de Marseille Type II with the Tarot de Besancon of Jerger with a Jerger card published by J. Blanche:
Image
Source: LOS CODIGOS SECRETOS DEL TAROT by Philippe Camoin, p120.
https://www.tarot.shopping/libros/los-c ... demo-large
I will return to the cards. For the King of Batons, I find all the details in Chosson, Conver, or Tourcaty except for two things. The green spot above his left wrist is rounder than in those cards, and the panel below, in its lower right corner, next to his lower left leg, has a design lacking in them.
This is mentioned in one of the preview pages above, in which Camoin writes of the 'Lazos de Amor":

"Here is another example of a Masonic symbol reconstructed and present in our tarot. On the King of Basto's throne, a curious symbol is placed right next to his tibia. Such a symbol is called the "love bond" and is used in Freemasonry. The bonds of love are intertwined, knots, which are formed in the knotted rope that surrounds the temple. They represent the "binding chain". As this symbol is placed right next to the King of Basto, touching his leg, that means that he himself is one of the elements of the chain of union."

google translation.

Unfortunately he doesn't tell us from what it it 'reconstructed'....

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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Thanks, Steve. These summaries must have been quite a lot to keep in your head at one time, even going one by one. And thanks for the handy links, as well as the one to Camoin's book, where he describes what he was doing to come up with his designs.

My only question to you is whether the fold on the leg in Conver and Chosson, becoming a tail, is in a cloth legging or just the way the flesh is drawn.

I could not find the Emperor card in the one mold I saw in Camoin's book. He does reproduce that mold on a page of his website, https://en.camoin.com/tarot/-Nicolas-Co ... ates-.html, where it is in mold 9. However, it is too low-resolution to make out anything pertaining to any egg beneath the wing. The mold with the Popess and Pope is his mold 6 there. That mold looks believably worn. The one in his book is quite sharp - perhaps too sharp, for a mold that has been used to any degree. Did Camoin somehow find an unused one? And does Camoin somehow claim that the Popess's egg is there on that mold?

In Camoin's book, I see what looks like a circle on the mold of the Pope, but it is in the wrong place - too near the acolyte's hand. And above and to the left of it is a bunch of stuff I don't recognize on the card at all.

Well, I will continue my examination, this time the court cards in Cups.

In Kings, the main mystery is where the earflap on the left side of his head comes from. In Jerger, etc., there is hair on both sides of the King's head, but that is not the same thing.
Image

In Queens, the discrepancy is in the wavy sword. It is suggested in Payen by how the color of the surroundings overlaps onto the sword, but I wonder whether in some deck there was something even wavier, because Belline had a wavier card in his deck of 1863. Surely Jodorowsky and/or Camoin would not have mistaken Belline for a Marseille?
Image
In the Knights, I really can't see anything that isn't in one of the three historical decks.
Image
In the Pages likewise, these four seem to account for all the details.
Image
Last edited by mikeh on 06 Jun 2023, 11:11, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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mikeh wrote: 01 Jun 2023, 05:13 And does Camoin somehow claim that the Popess's egg is there on that mold?[/i]
No, he says it is on the Suzanne card, but is not found in Camoin [either on the cards or the woodblock].
mikeh wrote: 01 Jun 2023, 05:13 In Queens, the discrepancy is in the wavy sword. It is suggested in Payen by how the color of the surroundings overlaps onto the sword, but I wonder whether in some deck there was something even wavier, because Belline had a wavier card in his deck of 1863. Surely Jodorowsky and/or Camoin would not have mistaken Belline for a Marseille?
Perhaps it was suggested by the wavy line that runs through the Queen of Cups sword in the Feautrier & Suzanne?
Image
Also I am not sure the wavyness of the Payen is caused by overlapping colours, it appears to me to be engraved that way, together with a similar wavy line along its middle to the Feautrier/Suzanne:
Image

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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mikeh wrote: 22 May 2023, 23:51
I find two ways in which Jodo's Bateleur differs from the Conver and the other TdMII's: (1) the dice; and (2) the knife that has a loop in it. I can find a precedent for dice - they are in Noblet, although with different numbers exposed and in different places on the table. Are there historical versions with the right numbers or the looped knife?
There are three dice on the Vandenboor, these are not on the cards of other Flemish pattern makers I've seen [Jar, Galler, Gisaine, etc]. There are several decks with two die, including post-war editions of the Grimaud & the Carta Mundi. Re: The Flemish pattern, like several Italian decks it also has the floating coin on the King of Coin, though it is without the one in his lap.
Image

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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Good eye as usual, Steve, on the wavy sword. I am not sure about the third die in Vandenboor, if you mean the one on the other side of the table. It might be a domino, as it is divided into two halves. One of them is blank, which was not usually true of dice. So far, only Noblet is a clear case of similarity, it seems to me.

Now I will turn to the court cards in Swords. In Kings, the basic design is Conver's, with some details better shown in Chosson or Tourcaty. The stern face is closest to Tourcaty's. The main detail I didn't see on these cards was the the hem of his skirt, or whatever it is called, the series of triangles. The hems on Chosson and Conver are too hard to make out, but they don't look like triangles to me. Looking for that detail in the links, what I found was Carrajat/Zoya, far right below. His is also the one with the most distinctively different faces on the epaulettes, smiling on his left, frowning on his right. On most they are pretty similar to each other.
Image
In Queens the basic design is again Conver, but the face is more Chosson's, I think. I suppose that all the lines beneath the paint on various parts of her robe are there on the mold, but I can't be sure (he doesn't show us the mold in the book selection). They don't seem to correspond to the lines in the other two, nor to other Queens in the decks under consideration.
Image

In the Knights, the basic design is again Conver, with the face looking more like that of Chosson. The straps coming down on his skirt and ending in three equally spaced circles (decorative buttons?) is found only in Tourcaty, however. What is missing from all three is the pattern on the man's left upper arm. The triangles are in them, but below them the lines are too close together. But those in Feautrier are a match (seen also in Suzanne).
Image

In the Pages, the basic design is again Conver, with some of the lines showing up better in Chosson and Tourcaty. The diagonal curved line down his chest is more like Chosson than Conver, although the shading seems to come from Conver. What is missing, of course, is the ermine pattern. For that we have to go to Carrajat, far right.
Image

I don't see any more differences on the number cards between Jodo/Camoin and Conver, besides those already discussed in the Aces to Fours.
Last edited by mikeh on 06 Jun 2023, 11:14, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Jodorowsky's Tarot de Marseille sources

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Thanks for getting the detail on the mold. Where did you find it? All I could find were rather low resolution.

I compared your two images with four more: Chosson and Conver at Gallica (ca. 1810) in the two row, then Conver 1853 (reproduced recently in the Anima Antiqua series of Lo Scarabeo), then Jodorowsky-Camoin, as uploaded at https://mysticsymbolism.com/Marseille-Deck:
Chosson-ConverGallicaAnima+SteveImage.jpg Chosson-ConverGallicaAnima+SteveImage.jpg Viewed 1793 times 87.95 KiB
I can't see anything on that mold, except tail feathers, vegetation, and/or the lower edge of the shield.

There is admittedly a connecting line on the right, between the bottom of the card to the tail feathers, on the Conver card - but if it were the outline of an egg, it would not tilt the way the Jodo-Camoin egg tilts. I suppose it could be a smaller, longer, and more vertical egg (assuming there was a line on the left corresponding to the one on the right), but that's not what Jodorowsky and Camoin portray. They seem to have "corrected" the lines that appear on the cards, so that a tilted egg can be filled in.

Perhaps you are seeing something I don't. Here is a larger view.
Image
Why this last combination of images doesn't show in the post, whereas the previous one did, even though of higher resolution, is another mystery, which to me is at least as much worth solving.

Added next day: Following SteveM's instructions, I did get the image to show. Wonderful!
Last edited by mikeh on 04 Jun 2023, 23:22, edited 1 time in total.