Re: help identification tarot of marseilles

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Huck wrote: 24 Apr 2021, 11:41 Thanks. This back I didn't know.
But I asked Rosele for the backs of the Minchiate cards, that he has presented, just to learn, if it is Orfeo, Fama or something else, which we already know. If Nathaniel's suggestion is correct, the back should be of France ... or without printed backs.
I still have problems attaching photos. The only back there is this :
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipP ... x0uC3NydTq

Re: help identification tarot of marseilles

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Nathaniel wrote: 24 Apr 2021, 09:37
rosele wrote: 24 Apr 2021, 07:37 I still have problems replying to posts, as well as with my English. I try to post again.The cover is in parchment, and instead of a cardboard to make the structure rigid they put about twenty pieces of paper, including the tarot cards.
to save money they recycled parchment and paper (which could be used to produce other paper, not for writing but to produce cardboard.
Grazie mille Rosele! Questa scoperta è estremamente interessante!
Come ha detto gia Mike, se vuoi scrivere in italiano, fallo pure, si può tradurre, non c'è problema.

I have one question: you said "The manuscript was written from 1750 onwards, but the book was certainly bound before the beginning of the 1700s." What do you mean by "the manuscript"? How is it possible that the binding is older than the "manuscript"?

When I first saw these sheets, I thought they were probably printed outside Italy, because the cards obviously did not have the borders made from folded-over backing paper that is so typical of Italian cards in the 17th and 18th centuries (and which can be seen on Huck's photos of the Lucca cards in this thread). This is what normally creates the border of black dots around the image. On Rosale's sheets, that border of dots is simply printed directly onto the card. So the designs used on these sheets were obviously copied from Italian cards, but they were printed by someone using a different manufacturing method than the usual Italian method.
Such cards could theoretically be from Piedmont, because the Piedmontese cardmakers did not fold the backing paper over in this way. But Rosale's discovery of the French writing means that these sheets are much more likely to be from France. They might have been made for export into Italy, especially to Liguria or Tuscany, but it's also possible that they were made for players in France: in Game of Tarot (p. 343) and Il Mondo e l'Angelo (pp. 262-267), Michael Dummett records evidence of minchiate being known outside of Italy in the 18th century, including in French-speaking regions.
Nathaniel,
sorry maybe I as a restorer, and Italian, I take things for granted. The handwritten documents, therefore not printed, could be prepared in different ways depending on whether they were from notaries, church, etc. in this case the bookbinder, took a bunch of new sheets, sewed them and put the cover on. Then they were sold and this point filled in to the priest as in my case.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/mCDG46HHeW3dSEKfA

Is for a month I have been looking for news and you are showing me that it is a particular thing, I had looked at Gallica etc. and found the similarities that convince me more and more that it is from the French area. The village from which it comes in that period passed from the Spanish domination to the French and the republic of Genoa

Re: help identification tarot of marseilles

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rosele wrote: 24 Apr 2021, 14:42 sorry maybe I as a restorer, and Italian, I take things for granted. The handwritten documents, therefore not printed, could be prepared in different ways depending on whether they were from notaries, church, etc. in this case the bookbinder, took a bunch of new sheets, sewed them and put the cover on. Then they were sold and this point filled in to the priest as in my case.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/mCDG46HHeW3dSEKfA

Is for a month I have been looking for news and you are showing me that it is a particular thing, I had looked at Gallica etc. and found the similarities that convince me more and more that it is from the French area. The village from which it comes in that period passed from the Spanish domination to the French and the republic of Genoa
Thank you for the extra information!
It sounds like the cards were most likely made for Liguria by French cardmakers. We know that the card market in Piedmont was very heavily influenced by the French cardmakers at this time, so it is very likely that they were also selling cards to Liguria in that period.

There is a possibility that they may have been used in France as well, especially southeast France, but we can't be completely sure.

Re: help identification tarot of marseilles

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rosele wrote: 24 Apr 2021, 14:30 I still have problems attaching photos. The only back there is this :
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipP ... x0uC3NydTq
Rosele,
I think, you can open the page (the link, that you gave above).

1. open it
2. click a picture with a left mouse click
3. you will have 4 options, take something like "copy picture address"
4. open the forum editor, where you want this picture to appear (that is this thread)
5. click on "Img" in the bottom line editor (you can see it, it's between B i u Quote List etc. below)
6. something like [ img ][ /img ] will appear. Place the mouse in mid of img](mouse here)[/img
7. press control and "v" (ctrl v) ... that's the command for "paste"
8. the picture address will be pasted between img][/img
9. Save the editor and you will see, that you got the picture inside the text.

Sorry, this might look complicated in the moment, but it will make you happy, cause it's not really difficult.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: help identification tarot of marseilles

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Huck wrote: 24 Apr 2021, 16:51 Rosele,

you wrote
The village from which it comes in that period passed from the Spanish domination to the French and the republic of Genoa
What is the name of the village?
Huck domani provo a mettere le foto.
Il villaggio ora si chiama Vezzi Portio é nell'entroterra di Finale Ligure, marchesato dei Carretto (molto potente se pensate che un piccolo paese per anni si é opposta a Genova). Dal 1715 passa sotto il governo di Genova.
A Finale producevano sia carta (c erano delle cartiere) , che carte da gioco e tarocchi (ci fu una mostra qualche anno fa) .In più sempre a Finale c era una tipografia "Rossi" che faceva anche da bookbinder.
Se siete curiosi e cercate Finale Ligure o Final Borgo trovate notizie più complete rispetto al mio accenno. (Sembro una guida turistica scusate).

Re: help identification tarot of marseilles

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Ah, that looks nice. Should be somehow the region, where pope Sixtus and pope Julius did come from. How old is this location? Did it exist already in 15th century? How old is the playing card production in this location?
There is a sort of Tarochi deck with Rovere heraldic, under suspicion to be produced in the time of pope Julius at the begin of 16th century. There was a very early Tarochi deck produced in Avignon in 1505, after Julius had a longer time there and Avignon was known for playing card production then. Pope Julius before he was pope (since 1503) had fear cause of pope Alexander VI and took his refuge in Southern France and was involved in the French attacks on Italy in 1494/95 and 1500. I've the suspicion, that Julius was also involved in Tarochi card production after he became pope.

The oldest Germini name, that we know of:

1. Franco Pratesi had researched this problem in 1990s and had dates the 1530s.

2. We found two dates in 1517 and 1519. Franco wrote the article. This was in 2012.
http://trionfi.com/germini-1517-1519
Involved was Lorenzo di Medici, who was duke of Urbino and ruler of Florence
Ruler in Florence since 1513, aged 21
Duke of Urbino since 1516
wounded in war of Urbino 1517
married at 1518, May 5
died 1519 May 4
his single daughter Catherine became Queen of France and mother of 3 French kings.
The duchy of Urbino belonged to the treasures of the Rovere family.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco ... _of_Urbino

3. 2015 this new note about Germini showed up: http://naibi.net/A/IPCS44N1.pdf
1499-1506: Firenze - Nuove infomazione sulle carte fiorentine
Also reported here .... http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=242666
Document 1499
Image

Document 1506
Image


Florence had a serious attack on its playing card freedom in 1497-98 by Savonarola, who burned playing cards and other things. 1499 and 1506 are the first signs that playing cards production was still active.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: help identification tarot of marseilles

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Finale Ligure has about 25 km till Savona in direction NO and 50 km to the location Imperia in direction NW ....

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Savona, ... 896857!3e0
Image
... what possibly might explain the ... PERI ...

Imperia has today more inhabitants (about 43.000) than Finale Ligure (about 11.000). Savona has about 60.000.

I stumbled about this page ...
https://www.juguetesreciclados.es/preci ... producci-n
Image
The location Finale Ligure once belonged to Spain and nowadays Fournier in Spain has reproduced the deck.

WWPCM05114
"Al Leone" (Bologna, )
deck "Minchiate Fiorentine" (97 cards), c.1790
1. WWPCM05114/01: reprint by "Edizioni del Prado"/Ediciones del Prado, Madrid, Spain:
deck "Minchiate Fiorentine Al Leone", 2004
dimension 60x105 mm.
Huck
http://trionfi.com