Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

41
Dear Huck,

thanks for the message - then we wait for Jonas Richter and his expertise.

I did take a look into the book https://drw-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.de/d ... blaettere= as you proposed
Huck wrote: [...]
Especially important is the last part published in 1933.
https://drw-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.de/d ... blaettere=

There it might be of interest to understand the complete book, not only page 86.


It becomes very clear that the author of the book of 1933 did see the original documents, and that the well-known Nördlingen/karneffel-citation on page 86 refers to a document written down in 1510.

The book furthermore has a register, and hence, you find on page 663 not only a reference to p.86, but also a second reference w.r.t. cards on p.128 (which is wrong, it is page 129 you have to consult): this second text was written down in 1476, but it does not mention any special name of a card game (as the reference on p.86: bossen in thurn, karneffel, hundert und ains), only playing cards in general. Hence, there is an earlier reference to cards 1476, but not 1426/27/32 or so..

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

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Addendum: It seems that the author of the book
Huck wrote:
Especially important is the last part published in 1933.
https://drw-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.de/d ... blaettere=

There it might be of interest to understand the complete book, not only page 86.
saw ALL the original documents in Nördlingen, going back even in the 14th century, see page 4*.

The register on p. 663 helps to find the entries:

On page 5*, it is stated that the Zuchtordnung (law for punishment, my translation) from the 28th of July 1474 contains a passus, in which after the general rule that card and dice games are forbidden, there is an exception for this for princes and other nobility present in the city, if the mayor allows them to play cards and dices. Townsmen, however, are not allowed to take part in these games (of the princes and nobles).

On page 73, from 1425, it is said that it is forbidden to play, but no special reference to cards.

On page 144, from 1472, it is said that it is generally forbidden to play cards, board games are allowed for small stakes (and if played with small stakes, perhaps also cards are allowed). No special reference to a name of a card game.

On page 216 (from 1481, see p. 2015, but also from 1447, see footnote on p.215), generally card games are forbidden, with the exception of small stakes and under supervision. No special reference to a name of a card game.

On page 230, from 1481, generally card games and dices are forbidden, however small stakes are ok. No special reference to a name of a card game.

On page 502, from 1500 or 1503 (see footnote), it is said that one has to report to the officials if someone plays forbiddenly (it is not mentioned what game is forbiddenly played).

That's all I found for the moment.

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

44
Addendum III:

The register on page 658 / 659 under the rubrum "Spiel" points to more entries:

on page 129, from 1476: playing cards is generally forbidden, with the exception that there is an official supervisor. No card game name given.

on page 224, from 1450, see footnote b on p. 223, playing for money is generally forbidden, including all card games. No card game name given.

on page 309, from 1445/1447 (see footnote on p. 308): in wine houses all games forbidden for money, including cards. No card game name given.

on page 412 , from 12. V.1439,: "Büttel" -elected officals-- are not allowed to play, certainly not cards. They should rebukegame players for playing. No card game name given.

on p. 431 (not p.430, as indexed on page 659), from 16.5.1465, Contz Spengler is elected to the pawn office and he should get the same amount of the punishment for playing games for money, including cards, as "Büttel". No card game name given.


That's now really all in the book on card games - what can be directly inferred from the register.

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

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Good work with the register ... You've mentioned details, which I don't remember to have seen in the other versions.

Point one:
The other earlier reports note Karnüflen (Beyschlag 1795, Müller 1817, both in connection to a "1502") and Karmüflen (Müller 1824, Beyschlag-2 1851). The report of 1933 gives Karneffeln (Müller-2). Jonas has the idea, that there is only the version of 1510. The author Müller 1933 was an expert reader. Can an expert reader read a Karneffeln, when two other readers read Karnüflen and Karmüfeln? The interpretations Karnüflen und Karmüflen are close, this could easily be 2 interpretations of the same written word. But Karneffeln is too different. At least there should be 2 different appearances of Karnöffel in the archives of Nördlingen (1502 and 1510). Possibly more, cause I guess, that 690 pages for the book of 1933 cannot present the complete archive of Nördlingen. There should be more material.
I'm not an expert in this question, I don't claim that.

One should possibly telephone with the archive and try to get info just with stupid questions. ... :-) ... for instance: how much material exists there in Nördlingen? Possibly this are not single books, but rooms with much text material.

Stadtarchiv Nördlingen
https://www.gda.bayern.de/archive-in-bayern/show/25610/
Veröffentlichungen
Minerva Handbücher, Archive im deutschsprachigen Raum, Berlin-New York 2 1974, S. 723. - Dietmar-H. Voges, Die Bibliotheken des Stadtarchivs Nördlingen. In: Bibliotheksforum Bayern 25 (1997) S. 167-174.

Bestände:
Ca. 10.000 Urkunden (ab 1233), davon 900 Urkunden vor 1400; Missiven (ab 1350).
Amtsbücher: u.a. Steuerbücher (ab 1404), Pfandbücher (ab 1390), Ratsprotokolle (ab 1436).
Rechnungen: u.a. Kämmerei (ab 1399).
Akten der kommunalen Verwaltung (15.-19. Jh.).
Sammlungen: u.a. zahlreiche Handschriften zur Geschichte der Stadt, darunter ca. 50 Chroniken, Bilder und Fotos, Zeitungsausschnitte, lokale Zeitungen (ab 1766), graphische Sammlung.
Ratsbibliothek (ca. 3200 Exemplare, u.a. Leichenpredigten und Gelegenheitsgedichte).
Archivgut der eingemeindeten Orte Baldingen, Dürrenzimmern, Grosselfingen, Herkheim, Holheim, Kleinerdlingen, Löpsingen, Nähermemmingen, Pfäfflingen, Schmähingen.
Archivgut der eingemeindeten Orte Baldingen, Grosselfingen und Pfäfflingen auch als Depot im Staatsarchiv Augsburg.
There are rooms, not single books.

The most important early Trionfi documents of Florence were the selling and buying lists for playing cards of 2 humble silk dealers between 1431-1460.

http://trionfi.com/naibi-silk-dealers
http://trionfi.com/naibi-aquired
Image
Such documents really make a difference. Trade documents.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

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Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: 09 Apr 2021, 12:10
vh0610 wrote: 09 Apr 2021, 10:51
Now question is: what is the earliest reference to Karnöffel, if it is not this one?
I think it would be Mysner's poem. It does not have a precise date, but the specialists say it is not far from 1450.
Augsburg 1446 ... close to Nördlingen.

Balgau 1448 ... in the Alsace.

Mysner is estimated to 1450 ... no location, possibly Frankfurt

Würzburg 1443-1455 "cartas ludum vocatur imperatoris"

Molitor-Bollstatter in Oettingen 1455
Image


Nördlingen is not a bad location for the first Karnöffel
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

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Thanks Huck and Ross Caldwell for the answers.

I rechecked the title of the book we refer to in the last posts

https://drw-www.adw.uni-heidelberg.de/d ... te=o02titr

the title is "Nördlinger Stadtrechte des Mittelalters", in English "Medieval city laws of Nördlingen", editited by Dr. Karl-Otto Müller, 1933. Hence it is a book on law aspects, you can find that also on page 4*, where the author explains which codices he takes into the volume.

This juridical choice of the material gives much room for
Huck wrote: 09 Apr 2021, 12:44
Likely more, cause I guess, that 690 pages for the book of 1933 cannot present the complete archive of Nördlingen. There should be more material.
I'm not an expert in this question, I don't claim that.

One should possibly telephone with the archive and try to get info just with stupid questions. ... :-) ... for instance: how much material exists there in Nördlingen? Possibly this are not single books, but rooms with much text material.

Stadtarchiv Nördlingen
https://www.gda.bayern.de/archive-in-bayern/show/25610
Hence, I propose to activate my friend, the German professor, it might be of help that he calls the archive, telling about the actual scientific question with respect to Karnöffel, and if one can visit their archives etc..

In this light: Does anyone know where the original dating of 1426/27 stems from? What was the claimed source? That would help for the phone call.

I ask this also w.r.t.
Huck wrote: The other earlier reports note Karnüflen and Karmüflen. The report of 1933 gives Karneffeln. Jonas has the idea, that there is only the version of 1510. The author Müller 1933 was an expert reader. Can an expert reader read a Karneffeln, when two other readers read Karnüflen and Karmüfeln? The interpretations Karnüflen und Karmüflen are close, this could easily be 2 interpretations of the same written word. But Karneffeln is too different. At least there should be 2 different appearances of Karnöffel in the archives of Nördlingen. [boldfacing by vh0610]


to which I fully agree.

By the way, the "Karneffeln" variant nicely fits with the "e" to my recent hypothesis -and I am not insisting on it, it is only an hypothesis-- of Karnöffel = carneval as the name for an event-situation in the game (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1033&p=23630#p23630).

In any case, in the German southern dialects as Swabian of Nördlingen the "e" within a word becomes easily half muted and closed, so one can understand an "ö" on "earsight", if I may call it like that. And when written down only by having heard the word, it is easy to spell either "e" or "ö" (I know about this since Swabian is the tongue I was raised with. Evidently I assume --and that may be false-- that the actual pronounciation and the one 500 years ago are not so different from one another. I am not a specialist on that, for this, we have to wait for Jonas Richter).

Re: Hello! - and kind question for help w.r.t. the etymology of tarot

50
vh0610
In this light: Does anyone know where the original dating of 1426/27 stems from? What was the claimed source? That would help for the phone call.
The works, which were done in Nördlingen 1795-1933 I've collected at ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=345&start=440#p23562

The work which sorted the results of Nördlingen works to other playing card research notes was ...
“Die ältesten Spielkarten: und die auf das Kartenspiel Bezug habenden Urkunden des 14. und 15. Jahrhunderts"
by Wilhelm Ludwig Schreiber, ‎Paul Heitz · 1937 · ‎Snippet-Ansicht
https://www.google.de/books/edition/Die ... frontcover

I had copied once parts of the book, but not complete. Schreiber was an accepted professor in the history of art ...
https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Ludwig_Schreiber
He lived 1855-1932, but the work about playing cards was published in 1937, possibly from material, which Schreiber had collected before.
At page 151 it is written:
"karnüffeln. Eines der beliebtesten Kartenspiele jener Zeit, das 1426 und 1502 in Nördlingen und 1448 in Balgau gestattet, 1446 in Augsburg aber verboten wurde."

There are doubts about the 1426 note of Karnüffeln.
There are other notes in the text, which I don't get in the snippet mode and which I haven't copied.
Huck
http://trionfi.com
cron