There is not much reaction, beside the engagement of Franco Pratesi, who wrote a few articles. ... :-) .. but Franco also had not much enthusiasm for the theme. I persecute it from time to time, and have occasionally little successes. For the moment it looks, that I've detected something after long patience. It contributes to the 5x14-theory, but for the moment I'm the only one, who believes this. Well, that's a common state, I'm used to it.vh0610 wrote: 16 Mar 2021, 21:00 ...It is very interesting to me and your hypothesis or opinion might be true (at least I do see a clear line of thought which seems to me very plausible).Huck wrote: 15 Mar 2021, 21:16 All, what I have in this category, is to some degree "insecure". "Insecure" does not mean that it is "wrong". A lot of insecure notes, however, can get a high degree of plausibility. [..]
I have a meta-question: how does the present community of scholars does handle such non-mainstream ideas? Are they heavily discussed with all the knowledge at the table and then valued one against the other? How does this community come to see an opinion more likely to be true or less likely to be true?
Here is a short list till the events in Lucca:
Lucca became known for decks in 18th century, which had a strange game structure: 13 trumps, and 4x14 suitsystem. The 13 trumps were a Fool, the trumps 9-15 of a Minchiate game and the 5 not-numbered trumps on the position 36-40 in a Michiate game. So this deck was rather similar to the 5x14 Trionfi deck ... in structure, not in the choice of cards, but in the number of cards. The 5x14 deck had 70 cards, the Lucca-deck had 69 cards.1309 The soldiers of Heinrich of Kärnten (Bohemian for a short time) shall have introduced dice games to Bohemia. In later chronicles also playing cards are mentioned. Likely this was a later addition.
1309 Siegfried von Feuchtwangen. Statutes of the knight order (Marienburg) by Siegfried von Feuchtwangen. Prohibition for the knights. Considered to be a later forgery (first half of 15th century) But it means, that the knigth order took it as a truth, that playing card existed in 1309
1324-30 Werner von Orseln. Similar to 1309 Siegfried von Feuchtwangen, prohibition and forgery.
Before 1340: The Hübsch report mentions, that Polish nobility used playing cards.
1340: The Hübsch report notes, that playing cards are known in Bohemia.
.... Hübsch-report: Playing Cards are imported to Prague from the city of Nuremberg
.... Hübsch report: Card-playing is considered by emperor Charles IV a game of skill, not a game of luck
.... Hübsch report: A playing card producer of Nuremberg, Jonathan Kreysel, moves to Prague in 1354. Before there is no evidence for card production in Prague.
The Hübsch report was written in 1849 in Prague. It was written about old trade in Bohemia till the year 1400, it's not the common playing card literature. Hübsch found his material probably mainly in old archives of Prague.
1350: A grand-daughter of Boleslaw III of Brieg marries Albrecht, a son of the former emperor Ludwig IV the Bavarian. Albrecht I. von Bayern-Straubing is later suspected to have played with cards, Boleslaw was accompanied by a similar suspicion (3 card players killed by a lightning in 1303 in Brieg).
1353: An archbishop of Prague prohibited card playing for the clergy. The extant text is from the begin of 15th century, so it's insecure.
1362/65: A Dutch playing card researcher, Gilles Dionysius Jacobus Schotel, found during 19th century archive material, according which Albrecht I. von Bayern-Straubing and Jan van Blois played with cards.They also made 2 journeys to the German knight order in Marienburg. Unluckily Schotel, similar to Hübsch, left no clear line to the relevant documents.
1365/67: Emperor Charles IV made in 1365 a journey to Arles. On this journey his entourage stayed some time in the city of Bern. Two years later (1367) the "Kartenspil" is prohibited in Bern (according a document, which was made as a copy c1395). This gives reason to suspect, that Charles IV distributed occasionally playing cards during his journeys.
1368/69: Emperor Charles IV made his 3rd journey to Italy. The journey lasted 16 months. 6 months totally were spend in the region Lucca-Pisa. In this time Lucca became an independent republic (1969, April 8), the military of Charles helped against a domination of Pisa. Charles finally got 100.000 ducats for this. It was a good opportunity to spread some playing cards in Lucca.
If one goes to the idea, how the 5x14 game was played, one might suggest 1+2+3+4 = 10 points for each suit, 3x4 points for Fool, highest trump and lowest trump and 17 points for 17 possible tricks in a game with 4 persons (4x17=68). This would make 4x10 + 12 + 17 = 69 points to distribute in the game for the 5x14 deck and the Lucca-Tarocchi and one card (for the Lucca Tarocchi) or 2 cards (5x14-deck), which can serve as Blinde, or Skat or whatever the expression is in the relevant culture.
This is not all ...