Re: Dating a certain tarot card & Scheggia cassone lid

11
Image

Well, perhaps one should find a larger picture of this.

btw. ... did you read my last post to the Fool topic (Bianca's garden)?

Added: This page ...
https://fleurtyherald.wordpress.com/2014/09/08/cassone/
... tells, that it is a picture/cassone of Scheggia (the cassone with the man and the triumphal chariot scene).

This page has it a little larger
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-giovan ... 45922.html

This is better ...

Image


And here it is rather good ...
http://flickrhivemind.net/blackmagic.cg ... 4325874048

Image


... .-) ... I don't think, that it is very similar.

Here are various views on the object (at the bottom) ...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ana_sudan ... otostream/

The series makes clear, that both Cassone belong together, as the 2 triumphators at picture 1 meet in a duel with swords at picture 2.

Added:
The red baldachin is decorated with writings: repeatedly "SPQR", I would think (but I might err).

MikeH gave this info:



So it's Titus Tatius ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_Tatius
... and Romulus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Dating a certain tarot card & Scheggia cassone lid

12
Huck wrote: http://flickrhivemind.net/blackmagic.cg ... 4325874048

Image


... .-) ... I don't think, that it is very similar.
You've got to be kidding Huck. Two white horses pulling a cart on which is an armed 'triumphator' atop an ornate pedestal, wearing a beretta. The CVI is simply armored without a brocade tunic over it (the cassone figure's legs appear to have armored grieves on them), but in the same martial context of the cassone ("2 triumphators at picture 1 meet in a duel with swords at picture 2").
Image

Re: Dating a certain tarot card & Scheggia cassone lid

13
Phaeded wrote: You've got to be kidding Huck. Two white horses pulling a cart on which is an armed 'triumphator' atop an ornate pedestal, wearing a beretta. The CVI is simply armored without a brocade tunic over it (the cassone figure's legs appear to have armored grieves on them), but in the same martial context of the cassone ("2 triumphators at picture 1 meet in a duel with swords at picture 2").
White horses seem to be quite common for triumphal chariots. No, I don't agree. If the painter (who possibly was the same Scheggia) would have had an interest to paint both figures similar, he might have done it quite better.

And I miss the halberd.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Dating a certain tarot card & Scheggia cassone lid

14
Huck wrote: White horses seem to be quite common for triumphal chariots. No, I don't agree. If the painter (who possibly was the same Scheggia) would have had an interest to paint both figures similar, he might have done it quite better.

And I miss the halberd.
The dress of the 'triumphator' is different yet contemporary (a prominent Florentine could be seen in either outfit), but essentially everything else is the same (a prominent Florentine elevated on a pedestal on a parade cart) except for a baton or sword hilt is clasped instead of a halberd. Obviously the peculiar halberd speaks to a specific event/situation, but otherwise anyone would recognize its the same genre of subject: a prominent Florentine carried on a 'chariot' in a martial context.

If the CVI Chariot and cassone figure are different subjects, what are they?

Re: Dating a certain tarot card & Scheggia cassone lid

15
Phaeded wrote: If the CVI Chariot and cassone figure are different subjects, what are they?
One object is a card deck and the other a Cassone. The Cassone refers to other Cassone motifs, and the card deck to other motifs on playing cards.
Searching further Justice-as-Fama motifs I fought these days with a lot of Cassone pictures, and motifs with triumphal chariots are not rare. Naturally the discussed object looks similar to this group, but - in my opinion - not especially to the C-VI motif.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Dating a certain tarot card & Scheggia cassone lid

17
Phaeded wrote:Thank you Marshall McLuhan.
... :-) .... thank you for the compliment.

Cassone tend to relate to complex historical stories, which is not unusual for them.

That's more difficult to realize with card deck motifs, it is not totally impossible, but rare.

A 16th century Tarocchi referred to Orlando-scenes. Boiardo created a potpourri of single scenes with famous persons. Sola-Busca another potpourri of (mostly) famous Romans. More normal Trionfi decks can refer to the family of the owner of decks, adding heraldry and possibly connections to still living persons.

Cassone have according their trivial feature "more space" a broader selection of topics.

The English playing card development had in 17th century much decks with contemporary political themes. Later there were for instance Napoleon decks.

Yes. indeed, the different media have (logically) different conditions.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Dating a certain tarot card & Scheggia cassone lid

18
Huck wrote: Yes. indeed, the different media have (logically) different conditions.
Or not. For example, the Virtues.

Spalliere:
Image


Cassone
Image


Fresco
Image


Cards
Image


Metalwork
Image


Stone bas relief
Image


Stone in the round
Image


Tapestry (Faith, one of a series of all seven):
Image


Glazed terracotta
Image


Manuscript illumination
Image


Please let me know if there is a medium I missed, but I can find multiple examples in each of the medium named above. I think you have placed artificial limitations on man's imagination and the exercise of it into any media, as evidenced by the historical exempli.

Phaeded

Re: Dating a certain tarot card & Scheggia cassone lid

20
mikeh wrote:In a recent article on the Catania (aka Alessandro Sforza) "Temperance" card ('The Stag Rider from the so-called "Tarot of Alessandro Sforza" at the Museo Civico di Castllo Ursino of Catania", The Playing Card 42:3, Apr-Jun 2014, pp. 231-236) Emilia Maggia connects a "Venus and Cupid" illumination by Apollonio da Giovanni--not himself especially, but just the style--to the card, as part of her argument that the person portrayed is perhaps male rather than female.
Given the recent discussion of the CVI, I thought I'd resurrect the 'stag-rider' temperance trump from the related 'AS' deck, given that I'm proposing the 'AS' was given to Costanzo in 1475 at the time of his wedding, thus the relevance of the festival book, fully scanned here: http://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Urb.lat.899

Given that premise, here is the festival book's depiction of 'Licaste' (Lycaste), a nymph follower of Artemis/Diana, as known in Claudian, De consulatu Stilichonis, 3. 252; 276; 292.
Licaste.jpg Licaste.jpg Viewed 5352 times 96.2 KiB
Clearly we have a female with chastity's attributes - the branch held by Chastity off to the left and then Diana's symbols of a crescent moon on the deer, and a bow and arrow with the nymph. The deer is not just Diana's domain of the woods but a reference to Actaeon, the man who views Diana in her bath and is transformed into a stag and torn to bits by his own hounds, as seen on numerous deschi da parto and cassone (shown along with the 'AS' temperance below).
Image
Image


What then are we to make of the invention of the male pouring a liquid on to his own genitals on the back of a stag? Per the deschi da parto shown above, the encounter with Diana is with her and her nymphs - which would include 'Licaste' - in their bath; the goblet must be a reference to that. In accord with Maggia's observation that the stag-rider is male, instead of the leering gaze at Diana we have a self-referential pouring of the 'bath' onto oneself, as if extinguishing the flames of Cupid (in the trionfo tradition Cupid is always shown on a sphere of flames). The temperance must be to Costanzo, tempering himself until his bride gives herself to him (and thus an implicit reference to her own chastity). The festival float of 'Licaste' is immediately followed by 'Romulus' which must be a reference to Costanzo (also in full armor in the last float of Fama), mythologically tied to Rome's founder due to his Holy Roman imperial fief of Pesaro:
Romulus AS.jpg Romulus AS.jpg Viewed 5352 times 137.61 KiB
Following 'Licaste' and 'Romulus' is 'Arethusa' - another chaste nymph attendant of Artemis, turned into a fresh water stream on Sicily. Significance? Italy, even Florence, was dependent on importing wheat from Aragonese-controlled Sicily, and that is what we see on the island before Arethusa - a wheat covered island on which she rests a cornucopia. Camilla's patrimony - her dowry seen in its must inclusive aspect - includes that wheat. Arethusda herself has a Sforza-type fountain on her head (not dissimilar from the bath Diana and nymphs are shown in the deschi da parto above), tilted like the goblet on the Temprance stag, and flowing downwards: free-flowing Abundance, obviously what will result from the union of the two chaste/virtuous individuals of Camilla and Costanco.
Arethusa - AS.jpg Arethusa - AS.jpg Viewed 5352 times 118.76 KiB
Taking all three floats together, we thus have the Camilla Marzano d'Aragona/'Licaste' marrying Costanzo/Romulus with the literal fruits of their marriage being Arethusa/abundance (the wheat and flowing waters associated with Arethusa's float).

Finally, the second to last float before the Fama of Costanzo, is Cupid; it's alright to introduce him at this late juncture after the chastity/virtue of Camilla and Costanzo has already been shown, and they will be lawfully married after all. The resulting union will augment Costanzo's fame.

Phaeded

PS some additional images - Temperance could be shown with a vessel of water:
Image


Detail of 'AS' Temprance showing erect phallus, and equally almost illegible, the outline of the inverted hexagonal goblet's lip toward the upper frame of the image (blends in with the tooled scrollwork background):
Image
cron