The Master of the Banderole had some connections to playing card productions.
https://www.wopc.co.uk/netherlands/mast ... banderoles
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meister_m ... Bandrollen
Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks
202I went looking for this hypothesis of Nicole Reynaud. It seems that her suggestion concerns the so-called Tarot of Mantegna:mikeh wrote: 13 Dec 2023, 12:36 So now I am revisiting the Robertet (of Moulins, France) images in the light of Ziegler and others, .....
Another possible source is tarot cards. Zeigler mentions Nicole Reynaud's proposal that the lack of chariots is due to the influence of tarot cards (p. 180, n. 573).Nicole Reynaud hypothesized that the figure compositions could be inspired by tarot cards: EXHIBIT.-CAT.PARIS 1993, p. 354. The scheme represents a rare alternative to the main strand of the chariot procession representational tradition.
Information from the Sotheby's auction site, Robertet-like Fountain of Love drawing, early 16th century -L’étude iconographique du recueil Robertet permets d’éclairer et d’identifier les diverses inspirations qui ont donné naissance à notre dessin. En effet, le dessinateur s’est grandement servi des tarots dits « de Mantegna » pour l’attitude et la posture de ses personnages, mais également de l’école de Ferrare6 pour le raffinement des drapés et vraisemblablement de Jacquelin de Montluçon7 pour les visages et la chevelure.
(F. Avril & N. Reynaud, Les manuscrits à peintures 1440-1520, Paris, Flammarion, 1993, pp 354-355)
6. Florimond Robertet avait reçu en cadeau de François de Gonzague, marquis de Mantoue, une Sainte Véronique, commandée par le souverain à Lorenzo Costa le Vieux et désormais conservée au Louvre (n° d’inventaire R.F. 1989-15).
7. Suggestion de Nicole Reynaud. (cf. Avril & Reynaud, op. cit., pp 354-355).
https://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ec ... t.302.html
Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks
203Yes, I eventually got the Avril/Reynaud book from interlibrary loan and noticed that myself. Then I didn't get around to posting anything about it - otherwise engaged - and forgot about it. It is an example of why you always have to check what someone says, as they may be out of their element. Fortunately, Ziegler at least gave a reference. I'm sorry if my forgetting to post caused you any trouble.
It seems to me an important point, actually, that there might have been an influence from the "Mantegna." Ferrara is the same place as the ms. with the quatrains in it, and in c. 1465 or later rather than the supposed 1435 or whenever the date was pages before, with many blank pages after the quatrains. And it would tend to show the influence of Italian card-like things (including engravings or sketches of paintings) from that period - to before 1500 - on the Robertet artist, which is the alternative I was pursuing. I can't remember for sure if Reynaud said that the "Mantegna" influenced any of the Triumph illustrations, but I don't think she did. It was about the images immediately following. Ziegler said her claim - I assume he was thinking of her claim about the "Mantegna" was "without evidence." But if so, he's surely wrong. It's quite evident in the following three sequences, on the gods, goddesses, and muses. See https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... f/f21.item (Saturn), then the next one (Jupiter), then https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... f/f33.item (Mercury) and the two after (Mars, Apollo), then https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... f/f49.item (Venus, less literally a copy), then the Muses, starting at https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... f/f57.item. Seems pretty clear to me. And seemingly accepted by whoever wrote the blurb you were quoting.
While I'm at it, I want to correct a mistake I made in this thread a little earlier that I also haven't gotten around to following up on. I suggested a certain minchiate World card as a possible source for Robertet's Eternity pose (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=906&p=26420&hilit= ... ate#p26420). The card I put forward didn't exist until the 19th century, and I doubt whether the copper-engraved version it was based on existed prior to the late 17th century, as the style of some of its cards, such as the Fool, is similar to Mittelli's version of tarocchini. Both World cards have "Europa" on the globe the figure is standing on. The minchiate card I should have used is the woodcut version. Even that version isn't extant earlier than the 18th century, but some such thing stands a better chance of having existed in Robertet's time. The pose is still the same, and the objects the figure holds - so my point remains - but there is no "Europa" in the globe below, just buildings, a church in the versions done in Bologna and a more classical-looking edifice in those of Florence, possibly in a rural setting; perhaps earlier it might have been the castles and hills seen on the Charles VI and d'Este cards.
It seems to me an important point, actually, that there might have been an influence from the "Mantegna." Ferrara is the same place as the ms. with the quatrains in it, and in c. 1465 or later rather than the supposed 1435 or whenever the date was pages before, with many blank pages after the quatrains. And it would tend to show the influence of Italian card-like things (including engravings or sketches of paintings) from that period - to before 1500 - on the Robertet artist, which is the alternative I was pursuing. I can't remember for sure if Reynaud said that the "Mantegna" influenced any of the Triumph illustrations, but I don't think she did. It was about the images immediately following. Ziegler said her claim - I assume he was thinking of her claim about the "Mantegna" was "without evidence." But if so, he's surely wrong. It's quite evident in the following three sequences, on the gods, goddesses, and muses. See https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... f/f21.item (Saturn), then the next one (Jupiter), then https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... f/f33.item (Mercury) and the two after (Mars, Apollo), then https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... f/f49.item (Venus, less literally a copy), then the Muses, starting at https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b ... f/f57.item. Seems pretty clear to me. And seemingly accepted by whoever wrote the blurb you were quoting.
While I'm at it, I want to correct a mistake I made in this thread a little earlier that I also haven't gotten around to following up on. I suggested a certain minchiate World card as a possible source for Robertet's Eternity pose (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=906&p=26420&hilit= ... ate#p26420). The card I put forward didn't exist until the 19th century, and I doubt whether the copper-engraved version it was based on existed prior to the late 17th century, as the style of some of its cards, such as the Fool, is similar to Mittelli's version of tarocchini. Both World cards have "Europa" on the globe the figure is standing on. The minchiate card I should have used is the woodcut version. Even that version isn't extant earlier than the 18th century, but some such thing stands a better chance of having existed in Robertet's time. The pose is still the same, and the objects the figure holds - so my point remains - but there is no "Europa" in the globe below, just buildings, a church in the versions done in Bologna and a more classical-looking edifice in those of Florence, possibly in a rural setting; perhaps earlier it might have been the castles and hills seen on the Charles VI and d'Este cards.