SteveM wrote: So? You think then Germany is a possible source and it means 'Fame Shall'" --- shall what ?

... .-) ...I wrote, there is a "Fama sol" in the text and this has NOTHING to do with the words on the cards. There's a festivity, the speaker identifies himself as Fama in the show, and he SHALL held a praising speach. This "sol = German soll" means "shall" and nothing, which hints to a Latin or Italian meaning on the cards. Similar you can't use an Italian meaning for "sol" like "alone" or "only" to explain the French-Latin use of Sol on the cards in the "Fama Sol" inscription.

We have no info about the painter/engraver/cardmaker Vievil being in Italy.

We have only three decks from the 17th century, such paucity of evidence leaves us unable to make such giant conclusions

This has likely to do with the condition, that the French Tarocchi production dropped down rapidly for some time in the period of the ruling king Louis XIV ... who played a lot with cards, but preferred national French cards.

It's not such a giant conclusion, when the discussed objects anyway were in decline.

I wrote earlier:

"Fama Sol" for books.google.com limited to 17th century has 8 results and it is nothing really useful. Maybe in Spanish.

"Fama Solis", 3 results

"Sol Fama", not better

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It seems, that Vievil stands rather alone with this word combination.

Repeat the experiment, and you'll get an opinion about the use of "Fama sol", naturally you shouldn't forget "..."

Huck wrote: Repeat the experiment, and you'll get an opinion about the use of "Fama sol", naturally you shouldn't forget "..."

The search (long ago made by myself) confirms - rare in France, relatively well known, especially at earlier time, in Italy - ergo - possibly of Italian origin -

other decks of Paris showing the same technique of production also show Italian influence (eg, TdP use of F for Faon/Fante instead of V for varlet, and S for Spade instead of E(pee))

Pattern appears in Paris (from? Depaulis says, of possible origins of the pattern: "We think, along with Michael Dummett, that the tarot of Jacques Viéville as well as those of Adam de Hautot and of the Brussels cartiers in the eighteenth century represents a distinct tradition of the Tarot of Marseilles, inherited more or less directly from Bologna, via the Piedmont and Savoy.")

There are changes made to the pattern the cartiers of Brussels post 1720, for example from Popesse to Spanish Captain reflecting perhaps --- no longer Spanish Netherlands -

and-

--from Pope to Bacus, perhaps related to banning of Society of Dutch Artists in Rome by Pope in 1720 (a society that had existed in Rome since pre-1620 to its banning in 1720, their Patron figure, Bacus astride a barrel - their subjects, gamblers, prostitutes, comedy de l'art figures (such as spanish captain),

and -

--from Fool as excuse to highest trump, perhaps reflecting the Dutch artists concepts of 'intoxating madness' or frenzy as source of artistic inspiration, fool/madman as muse ?

mikeh wrote:Alain wrote,

Mikeh

Since, we have worked with Steve hypothesis and finally we got to the conclusion that :
Dame as Fortune X,
Fama Sol as Temperance XIIII : "the only one card with inscription".
Death XIII "the only one card without a name"

Huck does nor seem in total opposition with this ...

OK, but I was dealing with the particular choice of inscription, "Fama", and that particular card, with the Temperance lady. It seems to me it has to mean "glory", in the sense attainable by anyone, eternal glory, i.e. at least the same word, if not the same meaning, as Petrarch. If earthly glory were meant, what is the connection to the Temperance lady?


Even after death, glory is not a sure thing; it depends on one's conduct in Purgatory. Conceivably, one could remain in Purgatory forever. (Well, I don't know the fine points of doctrine here, as to whether God's mercy or the end of his patience would intervene first.)

I do not know what "solar fame" could mean. I do not know that expression, even in a 16th-17th century context.

Mikeh

Yes.
The difficulty I have with the hypothesis of SOL + FAMA or solar fame refering to Louis XIV as Roi Soleil is that :
- I don't understand it's logic in the Trump sequence - whereas symbolically or in relation with the sybillin text of the AS of deniers and Two of cups or simply face value
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=747&start=110#p19302
- and I have the same questio that for Alverda's hermetist thesis about FAMA RC;
what was the involment of Viéville in the RC
what was the involment of Viéville in nationalist royalist sentiment praising Louis XIV?


Morever why did Viévile here use Temperance and not the Emperor?
Temperance was not the principal quality of the Roi Soleil...
The sceptor of Temperance is really very dissumilate as link...

NB. In the logic of dissimulation or discretion, Alverda's thesis could be reenforced by the maconnic RC symbol of the Eye between the two wings,BUT it is not on Viéville's Temeperance sceptor.

Sceptical.

The thesis of Steve appeals me more;
But it has the difficulty to suppose that Viéville drew on an Italian pattern
Well, that was also the case in the so-called Tarot de Paris.

PS
20 years ago, wile I was in Paris I had the opportunity to have it in hand ... the original... It's very beautiful.

Huck wrote: Repeat the experiment, and you'll get an opinion about the use of "Fama sol", naturally you shouldn't forget "..."

Sorry, I just do not follow the logic of your argument?

Perhaps it is a language problem?

To make it simple -

Me (SteveM)

French references = rare, Italian relatively common - makes sense in Italian, not at all in French, ergo - possibility=of an Italian source or influence = (to me) makes sense

You (Huck)

French references = rare, Italian relatively common - makes sense in Italian, not at all in French, ergo -
is French = (to me) makes no sense at all!?

Alain: I am agreeing/do agree with you.

Huck: The Belgian comes from Vieville's tradition. For the origin of Vieville, look at other trumps. As I think it was Dummett who pointed out, there are special similarities (not shared by the Tarot de Marseille pattern) to the Cary Sheet (and to the Metropolitan Budapest Sheets, I'd add). Vieville's tarot is descended from a Lombard/French tradition, and closer to it than the Tarot de Marseille.

Alciato spent much time in France, where he was well known in intellectual circles: Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Alciato): "He is regarded as the founder of the French school of legal humanists." He was writing in part for a French audience, as his books, in Latin (including the one with the tarot subjects), were published in Lyon (Lugduni) (e.g.https://www.worldcat.org/search?q=au%3A ... umber_link).

One more thing on glory. With her right hand, on the Belgian card XIV, the lady pours not only cold water into hot, but water (blue) into wine (red), not only tempering wine but the Eucharist = Eternal Glory, which will eventually (at the Last Judgment) defeat time. In her left hand she holds a baton (symbol of worldly authority) with wings (fame spreading over the world, perhaps also to the heavens) = , which will be defeated by time.

Added later: Specific comparisons of Vieville with Cary Sheet: the Hanged Man's fingers, the boy with a flag under the Sun, the walking Devil. Perhaps also the Tower, if what we see the right side of in front of the tower is a tree, as in the Metropolitan/Budapess. There also seems to be a barnyard animal, as in Vieville. The Vieville World card is closer than the Tarot de Marseille to the Sforza Castle World card.

mikeh wrote:In her left hand she holds a baton (symbol of worldly authority) with wings (fame spreading over the world, perhaps also to the heavens)

Makes sense, but I still think, if it is Fama as in fame triumphing over death, then it is possible the sceptre is meant to be a version of the Sceptre of Triumph:

Da nunc et volucrem sceptro quae surgit eburno,
Which Michell Marolles (the same that gives us the earliest tarot rules in French) translates as:
Adioustes-y l'oyseau qui s'éleve sur le haut d'un Sceptre d'yvoire,

(Add there the bird that rises on top of the ivory sceptre)

(The bit between the wings also seems feathery - the body of the bird possibly?)

{The bird in Roman triumphs atop the sceptre was actually an eagle, but if one had only a literary reference such as the above to go by I think it is possible one would come up with a representation such as that on the card}

Well, the bird ...

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_de_La_Vieuville (also called Vieville)
Grand Fauconnier de France

Father: 1596-1610 : Robert de la Vieuville (†1612), marquis de La Vieuville (also called Vieville)
Son: 1610-1612 : Charles de La Vieuville (1582-1653), marquis de La Vieuville (also called Vieville)
according https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Fau ... _de_France

Les armes et blasons des chevaliers de l'ordre du St. Esprit
Jacques Morin (1623)
https://books.google.de/books?id=WOtDAA ... le&f=false



Charles got a son named Charles II.

Charles II became duke in 1652
Charles I died 2nd January 1653

Robert had connection to the Rethelois ... (he became gouverneur there)

Cour quelques mois après le mariage du futur Henri IV ,i.e. le 18 août 1572, ce mariage ayant été suivi cinq jours plus tard par le massacre de la Saint Barthélémy, qui fit trois mille morts dans Paris.
27 janvier 1574 - 19 février 1605, Charles IX le nomme lieutenant général en pays de Rethelois, il eut à combattre le maréchal de Saint-Pol qui ravageait le pays pour la Ligue. Il fut obligé de lui céder Rethel prise de vive force en 1589. Puis ils se combattirent autour du château de Sy. Le marquis avait trois compagnies à pied et deux d'arquebusier à cheval, Saint-Pol avait huit canons, 1 200 cavaliers et 6 000 hommes à pied. Le siège de douze jours laissait les deux partis exsangues, le pays ruiné. Aucun parti ne recevant de renfort, le marquis se rendait en promettant de ne pas fortifier son château et de rester neutre, le maréchal de Saint-Pol retournait à Reims en août.

Charles I had connection to the Rethelois ... see heraldry.

Rethel belonged to Louis Gonzaga (Nevers-Rethel)

***************

Where comes the cardmaker Vievil from? It's plausible, that he either came from Belgium or from the Belgium/French border.



329 persons with the name Vieville were born in France in the period 1891- 1915 (the name Vievil had 0 persons). They gathered at the Belgian/French border. A location Le Hérie-la-Viéville is near, possibly an indication, that the family name developed from the name of a location or in .
https://www.google.de/maps/place/02120+ ... 4d3.645096
Nearby is also Rethel, which belonged since 1565 to the dominion of Louis Gonzaga (Nevers-Rethel), known by my theory, that he influenced the production of the Tarot de Paris 1559. And the location Tournay, know as a famous place for playing card production since 1427 is in the distance of 90 km.
Well, we have, that curiously Flemish traders imported playing cards (between them also Trionfi cards) to Rome between 1453-65 ... and one trader with the Italian name Tornieri often accompanied them and Tornieri sounds like "from Tournay". He also imported Trionfi cards to Rome and he is connected to the cheapest Trionfi decks in the Esch report.

**************

The Vieuville-Vieville nobility came originally from the Bretagne. Johan Coskaer or Cosker, owner of Farbus in Artois, took the name la Vieuville. He married the widow Catherine de Kerviher (?) in 1472 (?), and got a son Sebastian. Sebastian accompanied Queen Anne to other regions.
... according books.https://google.de/books?id=ESvF-HnKUDMC ... se&f=false
... see entry "Vieuville"

Bertrand wrote: Adam de Hautot made a "Belgian Tarot" but he was from a long time family of cardmaker from Rouen. That doesn't make him a belgian, does it ?

The animal on Hautot fool looks different to those of the Belgian pattern - I have only seen small, low resolution, so can't be sure, but it looks like a lion:



Leo Belgicus ?

Well I m not surprized finally.
Once more the "rule" of impossible unanimity is reached....

Once more, we have a relative consensus between some contributors and at least one opposition with another point of view - I m not apprecuating the validity of the consensus or the opposition here. just stats...

About Fama :
Steve, Mikeh and I
Opposition : Huck

Abour Charles VI Fleur de lys limit data
Huck, Steve and I
Opposition : Phaeded

About Arithmological tarot
Mikeh and I
Steve and I
Opposition : Huck


ETC

That s THF!

Yes, if you want consensus, THF is not a good place to find it. If what you seek is critique, I know of no place better.

Steve: nice point, about the bird. So if Roman triumphs had the scepter with the eagle on top, is this an association to fama as worldly or as eternal? I would have thought worldly. And so not, as I had suggested, flying to the heavens. Unless somehow the eagle is to attract the attention of Jupiter, being his bird. But that seems too subtle a point by the 18th century. These decks, fortunately for us, did not have Jupiter as card V.

I hadn't known about the Belgian Lion. And he existed long before there was a Belgium, I see (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Belgicus). I especially like his legs. But whether the Fool's animal could possibly be such a small creature, as opposed to a cat (or the Fool such a giant), I don't know.