Re: PMB Chariot - gold buck-toothed pegasus?

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Dummett and McLeod explain Pisarri's counting rule as follows, in A History of Games Played with the Tarot Pack, page 261 note 6:
"Note that, if the numbering were carried on to the top, the highest trump, the Angel, would only receive the number 20: the Bagattino or Begato is to be considered as not having a number (6).

(Note 6): "This may possibly be derived from a method described by Pisarri (pp. 40-41) for computing the value of a grande (sequence of trumps) from the trumps held at the end of the hand by the opponents of the side that has the Angelo. Although at the time Pisarri was writing the trumps did not yet bear numerals, he assigns to them for this purpose precisely the numbers that were later shown when numerals were added. His recipe depends on finding the critical trump whose absence interrupts the grande (Pisarri calls this l'ultimo Trionfo, che scavezza). Beginning with the number assigned to this trump, one adds the number of higher trumps held by the side that does not have the Angelo, together with the number of contatori held by them, multiplies by 5, and subtracts the result from 105. For example if one side has World, 14, 12, 10, 9, 7, 5, Begato, the critical trump is the 12 (since the Matto can be substituted for the 14), and there are three trumps to add (World, 14, Begato), so the value of the grande held by the other side is 105-(12+3) x 5=30."
I added this note in pencil in the margin to help me understand it:

"In other words - other side has the Grande of Angelo, Sun, Moon, Star 16, Thunderbolt 15, (Matto), Morte 13, [-], Old Man 11, 10, 9: they lack the 12 hence it is a Grande of 7 cards = 30 points."

Re: PMB Chariot - gold buck-toothed pegasus?

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Yes, it helps to calculate the points both ways. The point about the scavezza is that it will get you the same result just from the cards held by the team that lacks the scavezza. Here is how Pisarri does it. The scavezza is the 12. Adding the two higher trumps plus one contatore equals 15. 15x5 equals 75. 105-75=30. (Dummett and McLeod are the same, just more compact.)

What I was mainly interested in thinking through was whether the same principle could be applied in Florence to the original ChVI, but assuming only one contatore, the Matto, as in Minchiate, the four "papi" arranged hierarchically, and perhaps the three cards out of the top four totaling 15 rather than 10, as in Minchiate the five top cards all have an equal value in sequences. (The assumption here being that Minchiate is a development out of a previous Florentine tarocchi game.) And if so,whether the Bagatello, even though not a contatore, would have to be unnumbered. I got lost trying to answer these questions several times, necessitating rewrites even after I posted. I am not at all sure of my reasoning, as it may just be my lack of imagination. But the answer seemed to be yes, it would have to be unnumbered even under those conditions. So look at my previous post, as rewritten.

Re: PMB Chariot - gold buck-toothed pegasus?

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Here's a translation of the first 20 chapters of Pedini's transcription of the rules he found. Just the translation, done by ChatGPT, which doesn't understand all technical terms but is consistent and therefore workable.

Chapters XI and XII seem to be the relevant chapters for scoring points and rounds in the game. The text can be downloaded here -
http://badigit.comune.bologna.it/mostre ... izione.pdf

Explanation of the game of Tarochino

Courteous reader,

Here is the manner in which our forefathers used to play Tarochino, ingeniously devised to pass leisure hours virtuously. I found it not long ago among various ancient writings, and thus I share it with you so that you may be provided with an excellent master, and I may be comforted by witnessing the game played as it should be. Be joyful.

Of the Game of Tarochino:

This game consists entirely of the following rules and laws divided into chapters, and these laws must be observed inviolably.

On the Quantity of Cards Chapter I:

The cards used in this game are a total of 62, divided into Tarocchi (trumps), Trionfi (triumphs), Figures, and Cartaccie (small cards), namely, four Tarocchi, eighteen Trionfi, sixteen Figures, and twenty-four Cartaccie.

On the Quality of Cards Chapter II:

Speaking universally, the cards fall into two classes: Trionfi or one of the four regular sequences of Swords, Cups, Batons, and Coins, each representing something different from the others. They must all be of the same design and without any blemish, particularly on the reverse side.

On Trionfi Chapter III:

All Trionfi have different names and different meanings, and they are placed in the following order as they rank among themselves: Angel, World, Sun, Moon, Star, Lightning, Devil, Death, Traitor, Old Man, Wheel, Strength, Justice, Temperance, Chariot, Love, four Popes, Juggler, and Fool.

On Games and Sequences of Cards Chapter IV:

The sequences or games are Swords, Batons, Cups, and Coins, and each of these games has ten cards, all of the same quality, namely, four figures and six Cartaccie. The figures are King, Queen, Knight, and Knave, and the Cartaccie are six in number: ten, nine, eight, seven, six, and one, called Ace.

On the Order of Cards Chapter V:

Among the cards, there is both superiority and inferiority. Among the Trionfi, the order is as assigned above. Among the other games, the King precedes the Queen, the Queen precedes the Knight, and the Knight precedes the Knave. Among the Cartaccie in the games of Swords and Batons, the number of the higher card prevails over the lower one, while in the games of Coins and Cups, the lower card conquers the higher.

Warnings:

Every Trionfo, even the lowest, has superiority over the Cards of the Games, even if it were a King or Queen. The cards of the four Games are so distinct that those of one Game have no connection with those of the others. There is no particular order among the Popes, except that among them, the last played wins over the first. Some claim that Love and Chariot follow a certain order among the Popes, but this is an abuse that should not be tolerated, as Chariot should take Love. The Fool, although counted among the Trionfi, has the peculiarity that it always accompanies but does not capture other cards. It is not taken by any other card, and it also serves as a Trionfo or Cartaccia when Trionfi or Cartaccie are called.

On the Value of Cards in Counting Chapter VI:

The Tarochi, which are Angel, World, Juggler, and Fool, are worth five points each when counting. Each King is worth five points as well. Each Queen is worth four points; each Knight three, and each Knave two. For all the others, whether Trionfi or Cartaccie, four of them together make one point when playing in a game. Note that the mentioned cards have the stated value when each of them is accompanied by three other Cartaccie or Trionfi, making four in total for one point. If, in a particular case, there are no Cartaccie but only other figures, in that case, one point is deducted for each figure's value except for the first figure. For example, with a King, Queen, Knight, and one Cartaccia, the first two would be nine, the others would be three, so it would score ten points. All of them, accompanied by Cartaccie, would score twelve points.

On Sequences Chapter VII:

By sequence, we mean a sequence of at least three cards of the same game or Trionfi or other games, always supposing there is the highest card, namely, in Trionfi, the Angel, and in Games, the King. For example, a King with two figures from his game scores ten points, with three, fifteen, and when you add one of the Counters, which are Juggler and Fool, they score twenty points, with both of them, they score twenty-five, and if there is also the Ace, they would be thirty. Similarly, in the Granda, the Angel with two following Trionfi scores ten, with three, fifteen, and so on until the end.

Warning:

The Ace does not enter a Sequence unless there are two figures, including the King, or at least one figure with the Counter supplementing it. For example, the King, Queen, and Ace do not score, but if there is the Counter, they score fifteen points. Regarding the sequence of Trionfi or the Granda, as we want to call it, it should be noted that if one of the first cards after the Angel is missing in counting, such as World, Sun, or Moon, it is considered out, and no further can be said to be out. However, there must either be the Star or something else after it, either supplied by the Counter or counted in the Granda. In counting the Granda, the first hand is made with three cards, and the others are in pairs, counting ten points each time. If there is one odd card left, it counts five points. Aces do not count in a Sequence unless as mentioned above, but when there are at least three of them, they score ten points, and if there are four, they score fourteen, and if two with a Counter, ten, and if both Counters, fifteen, continuing in this manner, so that four Aces with two Counters score twenty-five. The same order as the Aces applies to the Popes. Whoever has more than two Sequences doubles the points. For example, if someone has three sequences worth ten points each, they score sixty, and so on for more points and sequences.

On Counters Chapter 8:

As mentioned above, there are two Counters, namely, Juggler and Fool. These are added to any game and sequences, as mentioned earlier. However, when putting together the Granda or the Sequence of Trionfi, it should be noted that when you reach a point where you cannot continue without placing both Counters one after the other, then the Granda is over, and you cannot add the Triumph that would follow. For example, there is the Angel, Sun, World, and Juggler, and also the Fool. If there is the Devil, it cannot be counted. The Fool has some privileges, as it accompanies any card played during the game, and it also exempts the player from the obligation to respond. For example, one plays Swords, and the other can play the Fool, even if they have Swords in hand, and it is not placed in the middle of the table but only shown and then placed among the player's captures or, if they have none, brought forward as a capture. Furthermore, it can also be played solo by the first player, in the same way, showing it only, and the following player can play freely as if they were the first. It should be noted that when tallying the points of the cards in the last capture of three cards when the Fool is played, the side with the Fool must give a Cartaccia or another card in its place, but never the same Fool, except in the case of a "game marcio" (a specific rule violation).

Regarding the Pair Cap: IX:

The Pair, or Cricca, is nothing more than having at least three or four cards of equal rank, and they score as follows: Whoever has three Tarocchi scores 18 points, whoever has four scores 36. Whoever has three Kings scores 17, and whoever has four scores 34. Three Queens score 14, and four score 28. Three Knights score 13, and four score 26. Three Knaves score 12, and four score 24.

On the Criccone Cap: X:

The Criccone is formed by three of the aforementioned Pairs or Cricche, and then the points are doubled. For example, three Tarocchi, three Kings, and three Queens score a total of 49 points, and because they form three Cricche, making the Criccone, they score 98 points. Note that although it is called three Pairs, it is not necessary for each of them to have exactly three figures; it is enough that they are not less, so if someone has four Tarocchi, four Kings, and three Queens, they have a larger Criccone, and even more so if they have four Pairs or five.

On Scoring Points Cap: XI:

All of the above about Sequences, Pairs, and the Criccone is meant to be considered when scoring both before playing each player's cards and at the end when the cards are gathered by the same players to tally the points. However, if one of the parties has not bet, they do not count even if they have a higher point total.

On Scoring the Rounds Cap: XII

Scoring points and scoring rounds are two different things. Scoring points means that after tallying what is accused before playing (i.e., according to the value of the Sequences or Pairs accused) and adding up these points, it is necessary to place in front of oneself or one's partner as many symbols, whether they be Ferlini or Fave, as there are tens in those points. Note that if, after the last ten, the number reaches five or more, it always makes a complete ten. For example, 15 or 17 points always count as 20, but 14 or 34 count as only 10 or 30, and so on for similar cases. The side that scores fewer points than accused does not re-bet but loses those points that they did not score. However, the side that scores more points than accused re-bets and loses both the points and the game, even if it would have been "game marcio."

In the case where both partners score their points correctly, there is no issue. But if one of the partners accuses fewer points, and the other more, and both score them correctly, then at the end of the game, if they win, they are worth the lower number of points. If they lose, the opposing side can put the higher number in their favor. If one of the sides forgets to score their points, the other side, if they win, remembers and counts those points in their favor at the end, adding as many rounds. However, if the side that forgot to score wins, they cannot count those points, as they have lost them for not recording them.

Regarding scoring rounds, this means placing the symbols of the rounds in the Piatto or Tondino (a game component) established for honors of Pairs, Sequences, the number of Trionfi, or Cartaccie shown during accusations, or for the capture of the World or Juggler during play, or for achieving 500 points and other hundreds more, or for other cases as will be mentioned later. The side that wins at the end of the game by having more points than the other side must collect from these rounds by counting how many times 25 enters into the sum of these points and place that many rounds in the Piatto, along with the honors owed, and add as many rounds as there are tens or symbols of points accused and scored by that victorious side, as well as all those accused by the opposing side. The rules for the aforementioned honors are as follows:

If you have three Popes initially, you place ten rounds to your credit in the Tondino, and if you have four, you place twenty rounds.
If you have three Tarocchi, you place ten rounds, and if you have four, you place twenty.
If you have ten Cartaccie, you place ten rounds; if you have eleven, you place twenty; if you have twelve, you place forty; if you have thirteen, you place eighty; if you have fourteen, you place one hundred sixty; if you have fifteen, you place three hundred twenty.
The same applies to Trionfi, and afterward, you play the game as usual.
If you have three Kings, you place ten rounds, and if you have four, you place twenty.
If you have three Sequences, you place ten rounds, and if you have four, you place twenty; if you have five, you place thirty.
If you have Criccone with three Pairs, you place ten rounds; with four, you place twenty; with five, you place thirty. Alternatively, it's customary to place twenty rounds for the Criccone regardless of the number of Pairs.
The first to place rounds in the Piatto puts twenty rounds.
If you do not want to play à Monte (a gambling term) and win, you place twenty rounds.
If you are without Trionfi, you place twenty rounds, but if you have discarded any Trionfi, you place only ten.
If you win having kept both Counters, you place ten rounds.
If you capture Juggler from the opposing side, you win five rounds.
If you capture the World, you win five rounds.
If you win the game with both Counters held by the opposing side, you place ten rounds.
If, after counting points at the end of the game, you have made 500 points, you place twenty rounds; if six hundred, you place thirty; if seven hundred, you place forty; if eight hundred, you place fifty; if nine hundred, you place sixty; if one thousand, you place seventy; if one thousand and one hundred, you place eighty.
If you make five hundred points without Angel, you place ten; if six hundred, you place ten.
If you win the game marcio (a game where no captures were made), you should double the points and, similarly, the number of rounds won. However, it is common practice to place two hundred rounds in the Piatto for all the points and honors that may exist, and the game is considered marcio when no captures were made by either side.

About the word "Sminchiate" Cap: XIII:

This word, I do not know if it means anything in any other context except in this game, where, without any derivation, it means to play a Trump card, usually understood to refer to the highest Trump.

On Beating Cap: XIV:

It is allowed, while placing a card on the table with the same hand that holds the card, to tap on the table, whether in the middle or on one side, provided that it is immediately placed in the middle. When you beat in the middle, it means or signifies having the highest capture of that round. But if you tap on one side, it means that you have the second capture.

On Drawing Back Cap: XV:

When one does not want their partner to take the highest capture of that round, they slightly draw the card back before immediately placing it in front with the others in the middle.

On Opening the Hand Cap: XVI:

If someone wants to indicate that they have no more cards of that round, they open their hand while placing the card on the table, but they do not speak.

On Card Secrecy Cap: XVII:

Just as in all card games, the quality of any card must be concealed, so in this game, they cannot be revealed in any way, neither through deception nor explicitly, neither with the voice nor through gestures, neither intentionally nor accidentally, neither out of carelessness nor out of grace. Whether the card is of any rank, even if it's a Cartaccia, whether at the beginning of the game or at the end, even with just one card in hand. The beginning is understood as the moment the cards are lifted from the opposing side, so it is never permissible to reveal cards except to score points.

On Silence Cap: XVIII:

This is a game that relies heavily on memory, and therefore, silence is necessary to avoid disturbing it. When we say silence, we mean not speaking. Thus, during the entire time cards are being played, it is not allowed for a player to utter any word other than "Sminchiate." Therefore, instead of speaking, gestures like tapping, drawing back, and the like have been invented. It is considered an abuse to say "I beat here" instead of actually beating the table, or to say "I draw back the card" instead of physically doing so. This should not be permitted for good reasons related to the game. Furthermore, it is strictly forbidden to engage in banter or praise with one's partner. In essence, no words related to the game, whether specific or general, can be uttered in any way during play.

On Reneging Cap: XIX:

Before starting to play, each player implicitly commits to playing by the established rules of the Tarocchino game or by the customary rules of the conversation where they are playing. If, out of ignorance or foolishness, they fail to observe these rules, it is called "reneging." This means breaking the trust and promise made, and as a consequence, they must suffer the penalty of having lost that game. They have no further action in that game and cannot count any points. Usually, it is customary to place the points that were scored correctly (i.e., before reneging) in comparison to the points counted by the opposing side at the end of that game. If the points correctly accused by the opposing side exceed, it is said that the side that reneged has won, and they place the corresponding parts in the Pot, along with the customary honors. However, in any other case, they cannot count and have lost the game, unable to place any parts in the Pot.

On the Way to Play Cap: XX:

The players agree together, as follows: one player is chosen to be the dealer, and the cards are shuffled as allowed for everyone. The dealer gives the cards to be drawn to the player on their left. Then, the dealer picks up the remaining cards on the table and starts distributing them, five for each player, beginning with the player to their right. As they take five cards for themselves, they pause and listen to what the other players say. The first player who receives the cards must either say "A' Monte" (I'll go) or "La tengo" (I keep it). They cannot say anything else, nor can they pass the cards to their partner, as that would be an abuse. The other players follow suit. However, it is true that the partner of the dealer always says "A' Monte." If the next player also says "A' Monte," then the dealer has the special right to reply with either "A' Monte" or "La tengo," and nothing else. If everyone has said "A' Monte," then the dealer checks their cards and decides with actions what the others have said with their words. If they continue to deal the cards, it means they kept them. If they reveal the cards, it means "A' Monte," and they relinquish the cards to the next player, who does the same. The player who dealt the cards then discards two cards at their discretion, provided they are not Tarocchi or Rè, and sets them aside. Then, they say "Giocate" (Play), and at that point, and not before, the player to the right, if they have points to score, says it aloud and places the cards on the table, announcing the points, marking them with Lupini (counters) or other symbols. They then pick up the cards and play one at their discretion. All the other players do the same by marking points and responding with a card from the same game, placing it in the middle of the table. If they do not have cards of that game, they play a Trump card. If they do not have a Trump card either, they play another card at their discretion. The player who has played the top card among the three, pushes all three cards forward and plays another card at their discretion, continuing in this manner until the end. The only exception is the Matto card, which is played as described above. After finishing playing the cards, each side gathers the cards they have captured, counts the points, and determines who has scored more. The side that surpasses the other by just one point is declared the winner of what was agreed upon for each game, worth 25 points or otherwise, assuming that no one has reneged. In such a case, only the side that did not renege counts their points, and the other side cannot count, having lost all rights, except for the points scored correctly, as is generally customary.

Some rules observed by good players:

Playing well is different from being a good player. Playing well means strictly adhering to the aforementioned rules. A good player is one who knows how to win or at least knows how to lose as little as possible. This arises from the diversity of actions in this game, as some are necessary, and others are arbitrary. Those who use the arbitrary actions well have an advantage and are often the winners. For example, discarding two cards is a necessary action, but which cards to discard is arbitrary. Likewise, playing a card is essential, but which card to play is at one's discretion. Actions like sminchiare, beating, and the like are all arbitrary. Giving strict rules for these is impossible due to the variety of cards dealt to players. Therefore, although some are suggested, they are not always reliable. I have only one rule that I can assign as an infallible maxim, and that is that someone without a good memory will never be a good player. It is necessary for those who want to use the arbitrary actions well to know which and how many cards are being played in each round. In any case, among the many that exist, I will assign some rules not because they are observed but because this completes my work.

Re: PMB Chariot - gold buck-toothed pegasus?

44
This is an example of how the game got simpler over time. The whole bit about points from rounds (Ch XII) got dropped from the game, I think. At least I don't see it at pagat.com, and I'm not sure if it's in Pissari.

I had second thoughts about my argument on the bottom of p. 4 of this thread, which I have added. I am puzzled - not about Tarocchini's sequences, or at least the Granda, but about whether the Bagatello should still be unnumbered if it isn't a contatore.

Re: PMB Chariot - gold buck-toothed pegasus?

45
mikeh wrote: 04 Sep 2023, 13:36 This is an example of how the game got simpler over time. The whole bit about points from rounds (Ch XII) got dropped from the game, I think. At least I don't see it at pagat.com, and I'm not sure if it's in Pissari.

I had second thoughts about my argument on the bottom of p. 4 of this thread, which I have added. I am puzzled - not about Tarocchini's sequences, or at least the Granda, but about whether the Bagatello should still be unnumbered if it isn't a contatore.
Yes, it seems that some aspects of the standard game got simpler, but also that the point-counting got more complicated. I haven't studied Minchiate for comparative purposes, but it's in Dummett and McLeod's next chapter right after Bologna, so I should give it a go.

I'll have to clarify some of ChatGPT's translation, at least terms like "accuse" and "Game", which, when capitalized and in specific contexts means "suit" here.

I have long thought that the Bagato's contatore status was at least part of the reason it was not assigned a cardinal number. In the Charles VI and Catania numbering, all of the trumps were numbered, and it appears that they were numbered after one of the papi got dropped, as it exists in Minchiate now. If they were played like in Bologna with the "equal papi" rule, I'd presume that they wouldn't be numbered, but we have Palermo's Empress with a big "2" inked on, and Charles VI's Emperor "iii". Love is "V", so the Pope would have had the number "iiij". If Charles VI's missing Empress had "ii", then either there was a Popess numbered "i", or the Bagatto was numbered "i" and the fourth papa had been dropped by the time those numbers were written on the cards.

Re: PMB Chariot - gold buck-toothed pegasus?

46
Ross wrote,
Yes, it seems that some aspects of the standard game got simpler, but also that the point-counting got more complicated. I haven't studied Minchiate for comparative purposes, but it's in Dummett and McLeod's next chapter right after Bologna, so I should give it a go.
By simplification, I did not mean that Minchiate simplified an earlier 78-card game in Florence, but that Tarocchino (in Bologna) got simpler, it is unclear when, but "scoring from rounds," the subject of Pedini's chapter XII, is now not part of the game.

And thanks very much for that Pedini translation, such as it is. It helps for purposes of quick reference.

I have corrected my post at the bottom of p. 4 to show that if there were only one contatore, the scavezzo numbers could not have been as they are, if the ChVI numbers are such. But as you imply (I assume), this is not at issue, as the designers of the game of Minchiate could easily have simplified that aspect, reducing the number of contatori from two to one, thereby giving "Papa Uno" its number.

But it seems to me significant that Pedini does not explain the concept of the scavezzo. Instead, all he says is:
In counting the Granda, the first hand is made with three cards, and the others are in pairs, counting ten points each time. If there is one odd card left, it counts five points.
That suggests to me that the scavezzo principle had not been part of the game yet, in the 16th or 17th century ms. that Pedini used. If so, and if the numbers on the ChVI were scavezzo numbers, it would have been an independent discovery, not popular enough to get to Bologna.

Also, there remains the problem of why the cards above the Star in the ChVI had numbers, as they clearly did. There is no harm in giving the Moon a scavezzo, if the Granda is Angel, World, and Sun, lacking the two counters and the Moon. The scavezzo would be the Moon, numbered 17. 17 + 2 counters = 19. 19x5=95. 105-95= 10, the correct answer. But if someone claimed a Granda with just the Angel, the World, and one counter, lacking the Moon, the number 18 on the Sun would give a value of 18 + 1 =19, 105-95= 10, which is wrong, because there is no Granda. Likewise with just the Angel and two counters. The scavezzo would be the World, at 19. 19 + 0 (no counters) = 19. 19x5=95. 105-95 = 10, still wrong - unless the rules then allowed such a Granda, which strikes me as dubious. Otherwise, having scavezzo numbers at all for the three highest trumps just confuses things, since a contatore cannot be used in place of any of the first three. That suggests to me that the numbers were not scavezzo numbers at all, but just indications of the order. In that case, the Bagatello would have gotten the number 1, to distinguish it from the Matto.

So the argument from the precedent of Bologna does not work, first because the reason for the numbers there wasn't used in the game until much later, and second because the ChVI has them where there shouldn't be any. You can assume two contatori if you like, but Bologna's numbers and the ChVI by themselves don't give a reason for doing so.

Bologna's four papi are another story, if they were all male at the beginning. They would have had to be all male in Florence, and not in a hierarchy, to make an impact there in 1439, then changed to male and female later and put in a hierarchy after the papacy left in 1443. A Popess for Malatesta in 1440 would have been pretty risky for the Medici and their account with the popacy, and the Council was still fresh. If the Catania deck was made after 1443, as a private commission for a foreigner (e.g. Alessandro Sforza), it would have been ok with a Popess matching its Empress and an unnumbered Bagatello. But the argument is not compelling: a fourth papa could simply have been dropped, to be on the safe side because his hold on Pesaro was tenuous. If there was a "standard game" by the time of the Catania, much like Bologna's by the 16th century, with a standard number of trumps, so accepted and standard by then as to forestall such a change, you might have a case, but I am not convinced there was. There are too many countervailing factors. Perhaps Minchiate can eliminate some of them, it is worth thinking about. The Popess did come from somewhere, and before the time of the Colleoni deck, but from where, and whether it was ever incorporated into Florence's game, remain unclear, it seems to me. Ferrara is attractive, even Milan (after 1454), and Florence after 1443 is not ruled out.
Last edited by mikeh on 07 Sep 2023, 08:54, edited 1 time in total.

Re: PMB Chariot - gold buck-toothed pegasus?

47
Ross wrote,
I have long thought that the Bagato's contatore status was at least part of the reason it was not assigned a cardinal number. In the Charles VI and Catania numbering, all of the trumps were numbered, and it appears that they were numbered after one of the papi got dropped, as it exists in Minchiate now. If they were played like in Bologna with the "equal papi" rule, I'd presume that they wouldn't be numbered, but we have Palermo's Empress with a big "2" inked on, and Charles VI's Emperor "iii". Love is "V", so the Pope would have had the number "iiij". If Charles VI's missing Empress had "ii", then either there was a Popess numbered "i", or the Bagatto was numbered "i" and the fourth papa had been dropped by the time those numbers were written on the cards.
There are two documents that suggest that the Bagatto did not have contatore status until much later than the numbers on the Charles VI and Catania.

First, the Anonymous Discourse, ca. 1565, which says:
Presenting the Fool all around, and making combinations [Bergigole], and chasing the Bagat [Bagatello], and winning the last trick with it, are all additions invented by modern players, in order to improve the game. (Caldwell and Ponzi trans., p. 55).
In other words, the rule about using the Fool in combinations is a new innovation, not previously seen. Even then, the Bagat is not included in making combinations.

It might be thought that Anonymous's thinking that making combinations is a new invention is based on his ignorance of the Bolognese game. But there is also the testimony of Piscina, 1565 Piedmont, who says:
I will also say why the Fool is so much desired by Players, because not only it is very good and useful, in the combinations [Brezicole] it can take the place of the King and the Queen, meaning the great Lords and Princes, of Knights, meaning men of average condition, of the Page, interpreted as the rest of human generation, if any of them is missing; . . . (Caldwell and Ponzi trans., p. 15.)
This rule is derived from Minchiate, not the Bolognese game. In the latter, unlike the former, the Bagattino as well as the Fool can do substitutions in the regular suits; also, there is in the Bolognese game no card that can substitute for the King. That rule, that the highest possible card in a sequence must be present, is fundamental to Tarocchini, as it also applies to the Granda. The rule in Piedmont as Piscina describes it coincides with that of Minchiate, as opposed to the Bolognese game, and would seem to be prompted by that of Minchiate.

On the other hand, the "equal papi" rule found in Piedmont would seem surely to derive from a rule in Bologna - and perhaps elsewhere - early on. That is not true for the Piedmontese rule about sequences, which not only follows Minchiate in its content but also in its terminology, corresponding to Minchiate's verzicola rather than Bologna's sequencia.. There is no evidence for the scoring of sequences in the Bolognese way, and hence of the Bagatino as a contatore, until Pedini, which may derive from the mid-17th century (as Depaulis thinks) or even the mid-16th (as you think), but not, at least from the evidence, from any original game in Florence of 1440 or earlier, or Bologna a little later. In that case, there is no reason to suppose an unnumbered Bagetello in the ChVI or earlier, and some reason to the contrary, since the Piedmontese evidently did not adopt such a rule from wherever they got the game when they first learned it.
cron