Re: Ser Ristoro (playing cards 1434 to Ferrara)

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Huck wrote:I don't know, of which legitimate male heir of Filippo Maria you speak of in the year 1440
You read me wrong:
"I just don't see how Visconti would even begin to consider Leonello, since he [LEONELLO] already had a legitimate male heir [born in 1439, by M. Gonzaga]
Huck wrote:you pointed to Lo Scheggia born in a village (San Giovanni Valdorno) close (c. 8 km) to the original location of the Serristori family (Figline Valdarno).
That's indeed interesting.

...Lo Scheggia * 1406
Father dies + 1406 ; father is a notary as ser Ristoro (grandfather of Antonio) ... which means, that Ser Ristoro and Ser Giovanni di Simone Cassai should have known each other, notaries should have known other notaries in close distance.
Mother comes from the Mugello as daughter of an innkeeper in Barbarino di Mugello ... that's earlier Medici territory, there the Medici came from. Likely the family knew, that Antonio was related by marriage to the Medici.
Don't forget to add to the above Figline connections that Giusti Giusto was a notary in Figline 1428-29, and ultimately back in his hometown of Anghiari in 1437 where he was chancellor of the Florentine vicar Morelli.

So let's assume a southeast sub-contado patronage network involving the smaller towns contiguous to Arezzo, from the Valdarno area to the west to Anghiari/Bibbiena to the east, where artists and notaries from this area would have especially bonded when in Florence. That would allow Giusti two different means of being aware of trionfi production from its infancy in Florence - if the ur-Tarot were Medici-backed and after Anghiari - as he could have known about it via the likes of the more important Morelli (a Medici partisan he was attached to) and at the notary/artisan level, assuming the likes of Scheggia was painting the ur-tarot (and one his fellow notaries, Ser Ristoro, from said area was procuring cards for foreign princes - N. d'Este - just as Giusti would for Malatesta).

Phaeded

PS - here's that dal Ponte "allegorical impresa" with what must be Morelli's coat of arms - note the trees and hills in the foreground as if to suggest the less populated (no town symbols) and more mountainous area of Anghiari where Morelli and Giusti served together, the allegory suggesting protection of Florence's interests in such a borderland, something worth celebrating after the victory at Anghiari (per my post here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1005&start=40)
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Re: Ser Ristoro (playing cards 1434 to Ferrara)

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The documentation for Leonello being the intended spouse is given in the Zanichelli Muratori, in the note beginning halfway down the second column on page 225 -
https://archive.org/details/p1arerumitalicarums20card

This is a note beginning on page 223, annotating note 3 in chapter XXXVIII (p. 180).

Borso is never mentioned in this context; as for Leonello already having "a male heir", that was moot, since Niccolo's sons were to take over in succession - Leonello, Borso, Ercole and Sigismondo.
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Re: Ser Ristoro (playing cards 1434 to Ferrara)

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Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:The documentation for Leonello being the intended spouse is given in the Zanichelli Muratori, in the note beginning halfway down the second column on page 225 -
https://archive.org/details/p1arerumitalicarums20card

This is a note beginning on page 223, annotating note 3 in chapter XXXVIII (p. 180).

Borso is never mentioned in this context; as for Leonello already having "a male heir", that was moot, since Niccolo's sons were to take over in succession - Leonello, Borso, Ercole and Sigismondo.
.... .-) ... that's a rather complicated (hi)...story ...

**************

In the matters of "Ser Ristoro" there's the new result ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1005&start=40#p18926
... that another document of 1437 (4 decks for 20 soldi each on the silk dealers "sale list") related to "Simone di Ser Antonio Fazi" (identified as father of Antonio di Simone, who sold many relative expensive decks to the silk dealers) might relate indirectly to the same region. Ser Antonio Fazi, is called in 1409 "da Monte Varchi".
Priorista fiorentino istorico pubblicato e illustrato da Modesto Rastrelli fiorentino ... [Volume primo-quarto], Volume 1
1783 - 159 pages
https://books.google.de/books?id=GTmn9c ... 22&f=false

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This seems to describe a meeting of the priors in March 1409 and Ser Antonio Fazi seems to assist. The next meeting is 2 months later and it is then another notary.
The interesting part is "da Monte Varchi". Montevarchi is near Figline Valdarno ...

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... Giovanni dal Ponte - in contrast - was from Florence.

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Monte Varchi appeared in Franco Pratesi's playing card articles:
http://trionfi.com/evx-arezzo-giglio-di-bettino

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... a running playing card trade in 1400-1408 ...
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Ser Ristoro (playing cards 1434 to Ferrara)

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Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:Borso is never mentioned in this context; as for Leonello already having "a male heir", that was moot, since Niccolo's sons were to take over in succession - Leonello, Borso, Ercole and Sigismondo.
My perspective was that of Filippo - the completely unsettled succession in Milan (not Ferrara) - as in where would a legitimate son of Leonello be placed for acquired domains (such as the Duchy of Milan) versus his subsequent children with Bianca (if that marriage happened)? That would have weighed on Filippo (considering the flagrant fratricide - particularly by older brothers - in his own family). But I fully understand the consensus that this was all a ploy to motivate Sforza out of Venice (and back to Filippo), and ultimately I've put too fine of a point on an issue (Leonello vs Borso) that does not matter in the bigger scheme of things. In fact I've detracted from my main argument here: Niccolo d'Este's direct involvement with Florentine card-making and his elevated role with Duke Filippo in 1439-40, providing a clear intermediary link between a Florentine ur-tarot and the CY. That Bianca was quite clearly depicted on the CY and was in Ferrara within the year before where she received painted images (figure) on card stock from this same Florentine-card-favoring Niccolo...well, you know what 'leap of faith' I'm taking.

Huck,
Here is a wider map shot of the Florentine southeast sub-territory I'm calling "Vadarno and Valtiberina" (the two rivers that flow there), obviously centered on Arezzo, which is how the Florentine army would have gotten to Anghiari (the mountain passes connecting the two "Val"s are via Arezzo; its a beautiful drive up SS73 through forested mountains - makes you wonder how the army progressed). You'll have to hit the attachment link to see the full map below:
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Its important to underscore that the fruit of victory after Anghiari was not that city, which was already beholden to Florence, but the Casentino and Borgo San Sepolcro. Regarding the latter, after some subsequent wrangling with both Malatesta - who had the gall to ask for it back as his family owned it up until 1430 - and the Pope, who Florence ended up purchasing it from (but consider now another reason why Malatesta was receiving the gift of trionfi right after Anghiari - I'm guessing to partly mollify him because the Florentine priors told him 'no' regarding Borgo). Even today the following towns are considered 'Valtiberina Toscana' https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valtiberina:
• Anghiari;
• Badia Tedalda;
• Caprese Michelangelo;
• Monterchi;
• Pieve Santo Stefano;
• [Borgo] Sansepolcro; [home of Piero della Francesca; the area was swarming with competent artisans]
• Sestino.

Regarding the Casentino, if you look at how the Arno goes south from Florence through Figline and Montevarchi but then curves due north from Arezzo, it goes up that valley to Bibbiena and Poppi - this part of the upper Arno valley is the other direct acquisition of Florence after Anghiari (Bruni ends his Memoirs, the supplement to his famous Historia, on this acquisition as a highlight of his career as chancellor, basically putting it on a par with the acquisition of Pisa). Poppi was of course the stronghold of the Counts of Poppi (Guidi) who sided with Niccolo Piccinino, the latter making his final base in Borgo San Sepolcro before and after the battle. The Count of Poppi must have been conspicuously absent at the St. John's Procession a week before the battle when his subject city was required to lower its banner (per the famous cassone showing that action) and make an offering before the Baptistry of St. John. Now his dominion came under direct control - no longer merely tributary, as part of the overall Casentino, which Poppi formerly controlled (on a side note, the mercenaries Giusti did business with were reducing the town of Bibbiena, just below Poppi, after the battle proper of Anghiari).

Back to Giusti - his early career has him crisscrossing both valleys as territorial notary for Florence, presumably knowing all of the major players in these towns:
Subsequent assignments...brought him to Foiano (1427-28) [south of Arezzo], where he was allegedly one of the notaries of the City, Barbialla (1428), in Figline (1428-29), in Tizzano (1431) [north of Borgo SS], in Bibbiena (1432), and Anghiari (1437), where he was chancellor [cancelliere] of the Florentine vicar Giovanni di Pagolo Morelli.
http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/giu ... ografico)/


It would be interesting to know if Giusti mentions Ristoro in his journal.

Phaeded

Re: Ser Ristoro (playing cards 1434 to Ferrara)

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Phaeded wrote: It would be interesting to know if Giusti mentions Ristoro in his journal.
Ser Ristoro was dead in 1400.

"Antonio di Salvestro di Ser Ristoro" or "Antonio Serristori" or "Ser Ristoro" and "compagnie" would be names, which might be interesting in Giusto's time.

Robust Action and the Rise of the Medici, 1400-1434
John F. Padgett; Christopher K. Ansell
The American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 98, No. 6. (May, 1993), pp. 1259-1319
http://www.netzwerk-exzellenz.uni-trier ... 100909.psm
... page 1314, part of the Appendix ...

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... the shown list is not complete, see p. 1314

It would be nice to know, when precisely the playing card action 1434 took place, and to compare this date to the developments in the relation to the case of Cosimo Medici. I have, that Cosimo was arrested in 7 September 1433, and returned to Florence at 23 October 1434.
I don't have the text of the Campori note. Possibly there is a relation ... possibly the return was celebrated with the production of triumphal card decks in internal cycles, and possibly Niccolo III desired to have 2 of them. Possibly Niccolo's 100.000 ducats somehow have also their function in Cosimo's return.

"Ser Ristoro and compagnie" doesn't look like a usual card trader ... or producer. But it looks likely, that there were active in matters of "Cosimo's return". If that demanded a triumphal deck production, they might have known an artist, who could realize the production and they could finance the project.

Just a speculation, of course. But it's curious, that the only known Ser Ristoro production occurs just in 1434.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Ser Ristoro (playing cards 1434 to Ferrara)

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Huck wrote: It would be nice to know, when precisely the playing card action 1434 took place, and to compare this date to the developments in the relation to the case of Cosimo Medici. I have, that Cosimo was arrested in 7 September 1433, and returned to Florence at 23 October 1434.
I don't have the text of the Campori note. Possibly there is a relation ... possibly the return was celebrated with the production of triumphal card decks in internal cycles, and possibly Niccolo III desired to have 2 of them.
Why would the appearance of a novelty in cards - ("with trumps" or whatever) - not be noted as such by merchants;' i.e., why are you leaping to the notion that there are trumps in 1434 without any notation of the kind?

Perhaps Cosimo simply ordered refined standard decks to help while away the time in exile and even gifted them when in Padua/Venice and then on his return? I will admit Cosimo's brief time in Padua (before being allowed to go on to Venice) would have allowed him to visit the Scrovegni chapel and view fellow Florentine Giotto's 7 vices/7virtues there, perhaps planting the idea for a trump series. But again, we have pre-1440 references to cards but not trionfi.

I think it more likely Cosimo had Giotto's cycle reproduced in miniature for his viewing pleasure, and from that a trump series was conceived at a later date (the Giotto miniatures being similar in size to cards - but all of this is rank speculation).

Re: Ser Ristoro (playing cards 1434 to Ferrara)

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The price of " sette fiorini d’oro" for 2 decks is rather high, nearly in the dimensions, that Giusto paid for Malatesta's cards and higher than that, what Leonello paid for single decks in 1442, when he became Signore of Ferrara. About 280 soldi for one deck, a sum, for which you would get around 1455 about 31 cheap Trionfi decks of 9 soldi.

So one shouldn't expect something "normal" or "just playing cards". Also normal playing cards could have "a triumphal function", the name "Trionfi cards" is just a name.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Ser Ristoro (playing cards 1434 to Ferrara)

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Huck wrote:The price of " sette fiorini d’oro" for 2 decks is rather high, nearly in the dimensions, that Giusto paid for Malatesta's cards and higher than that....

So one shouldn't expect something "normal" or "just playing cards". Also normal playing cards could have "a triumphal function", the name "Trionfi cards" is just a name.
So now we should assume a certain price threshold and anything above that indicates trionfi or something abnormal? Please. There were cheap and expensive decks of standard cards - naturally elites preferred the latter; absolutely nothing surprising about that. Your notion of "triumphal function" for standard cards is equally bogus because it is taken out of context ; yes cards, like any game, had a winner, but Giusti's context is not in the sense of " winning a hand". "Trionfi cards" is not just a name, especially in Giusti's context: what he paid for was un paio di naibi a trionfi :cards with something else - trionfi. Trionfi is not an adjective, as in triumphal hand, but rather in reference to something tacked on to a standard deck.

Re: Ser Ristoro (playing cards 1434 to Ferrara)

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Phaeded wrote:
Huck wrote:The price of " sette fiorini d’oro" for 2 decks is rather high, nearly in the dimensions, that Giusto paid for Malatesta's cards and higher than that....

So one shouldn't expect something "normal" or "just playing cards". Also normal playing cards could have "a triumphal function", the name "Trionfi cards" is just a name.
So now we should assume a certain price threshold and anything above that indicates trionfi or something abnormal? Please. There were cheap and expensive decks of standard cards - naturally elites preferred the latter; absolutely nothing surprising about that. Your notion of "triumphal function" for standard cards is equally bogus because it is taken out of context ; yes cards, like any game, had a winner, but Giusti's context is not in the sense of " winning a hand". "Trionfi cards" is not just a name, especially in Giusti's context: what he paid for was un paio di naibi a trionfi :cards with something else - trionfi. Trionfi is not an adjective, as in triumphal hand, but rather in reference to something tacked on to a standard deck.
If a modern firm produces for a jubilee or an advertising context a playing card deck ... then it's somehow filling the concept of a "triumphal function". Well, and that's a quite common behavior. Breweries for instance produce commonly decks with a backside logo and distribute them to innkeepers.

The discussed topic of Ser Ristaro's deck has - in playing research - as "neighbors in time" the Imperatori cards (1423), the Michelino deck, the Cary-Yale, the Meister Ingold note of 1432, the Karnöffel game in 1427, which in Mysner's version looks as if it had special trump cards, the Hofämterspiel .. sure, also decks, which look normal in structure like the Stuttgarter Jagdspiel and the Ambras.
But no reason to assume a natural dominance of "normal deck structure" in the question of the Ser Ristoro decks, other unusual game solutions are nearby. Your ironical "please" seems misplaced. Likely your pet theory "Anghiari deck" leads you to overlook other possibilities.
It's far better for the own judgments to keep to a neutral state of mind.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Ser Ristoro (playing cards 1434 to Ferrara)

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Spanish connections between the Ser Ristoro firm and Spanish trading partners in 1431 (Barcelona, Sevilla, and Valencia)

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... from Sergio Tognetti: Da Figline a Firenza. Ascesa economica e politica della famiglia Serristori ( secoli XIV-XVI) (2003)
http://www.rmoa.unina.it/2584/1/volume_tognetti.pdf
.... Pages 79/80

Possibly of importance in the Giovanni dal Ponte discussion.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1005&start=70#p18995
Huck
http://trionfi.com
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