Collection "nec spe, nec metu"

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A search for the origin of the motto "nec spe, nec metu"

Appearance on 2 Sforza Tarocchi cards

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The cards appeared ..
a. Kaplan Encyclopedia I. p. 99, Rosenthal Visconti-Sforza cards
b. Kaplan Encyclopedia I, p. 104, Victoria and Albert Museum Visconti Sforza Tarocchi cards

The cards are very similar, but have small differences. The Rosenthal card has a not identified inscription, which the Victoria Albert version hasn't.

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Huck ...
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php? ... stcount=54
at thread http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.ph ... 552&page=6
http://www.bidiso.es/slp/necspenecmetu.pdf
In this Spanish article (about "nec spe, nec metu") the author lists impresa used by Isabella d'Este.

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He also points to the use of the motto by others ... after Isabella d'Este.

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The fame of the motto (and of Isabella Este) developed with her diplomatic role during the war of the League of Cambray starting 1508, in the beginning mainly against the republic of Venice, and in the end against France. It has a lot to do with the international negotiations in Mantova, and a time, in which her husband had been prisoner in Venice and Isabella managed the court in Mantova alone.
From this role developed the condition, that Isabella had a leading hand in the organization of the festivities for Massimiliano Sforza in December 1512 ... an so for this card deck also.

She did chose to present herself at the ace of cups (cups = love). The words spe (from Spes = Hope) and metu (= Fear) remember the composition of 4 Stoic passions, which were used by Matteo Maria Boiardo as suit signs in his Tarocchi poem with Love-Hope-Jealousy-Fear. so the position at the Love-Ace (= cups-Ace) has some internal logic.

FEAR then was given with the word TIMORE and not with METU; likely this poem was arranged in January 1487 for Lucrezia d'Este's wedding. Lucrezia had been the elder half-sister of Isabella d'Este.

The poem stands in a row with other literature produced in Ferrara since 1487, in which women are presented as superior to men. As another early work of this genre is given the work of Bartolomeo Goggio 1490 in Ferrara for Eleanore d'Aragon (Isabella's mother) ...
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2 ... 3574333917

As far I get it, the motto was commented "around 1505" by poet Mario Equicola ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Equicola
... who didn't invent the motto, but reacted on the already given use of Isabella d'Este.
Isabella d'Este might have taken it a little bit earlier than 1505. Perhaps it was developed in the preparation on the expected death of Isabella's father Ercole d'Este, which naturally would cause a lot of changes inside the Este family. He died really in January 1505. The following start of the rule of Alfonso d'Este developed in short time to serious attacks, rebellion, murder and lifelong prison ... inside the family. The sleeping tensions likely were already obvious in 1504. The choice of the stoic motto might have reflected these tensions ... and even if it had been stated only in regard of a possible too close relationship between Lucrezia Borgia and Isabella's husband.
But the more relevant conflicts were the conflicts of the brothers and the outside attempts to stimulate these conflicts (by Pope Julius, already in 1504).

Francesco Gonzaga became Venetian prisoner in July 1509. In July 1510 he was released, so long before the deciding actions in 1512, after Venice had turned to an alliance with pope Julius in early 1510.
Francesco got then a leading military commission from the Chiesa against France and Ferrara, as a result of the diplomatic activities of his wife.

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The deciding point for playing card research and the dating of the deck is the detail, if the motto "nec spe, nec metu" was used by somebody else before 1505. All what I got to the point, is, that the motto wasn't known. It isn't excluded, that it existed before. But it got a lot of attention from different sides, and these researches seem to have gotten nothing better than a start with Isabella d'Este.

The concrete political conditions of the time are surely interesting, inclusive the personal feelings of Isabella d'Este, but not necessary for the dating.

The second interesting point is, if there was another political situation, in which somebody might have developed an interest to make a new Visconti-Sforza deck after 1500 and before 1512 ... I don't see a reason.
Further pictures in the same article ...

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Stemma of the location Feltre

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Vittorino da Feltre ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vittorino_da_Feltre
... had been a famous teacher in Mantova, especially he was the teacher of Gonzaga children.

Possibly Isabella's motto was adapted by the city location.
In 1509 the city Feltre was completely destroyed by Maximilian in the war against Venice, so the city was involved in the special situation of 1512.

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Impresa in Mantova

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http://www.stewardmantova.it/index.php/ ... ei-gonzaga

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Château de Breteuil (35 km to Paris)
http://michel.lalos.free.fr/cadrans_sol ... teuil.html
The location has a relation to Charles Perrault.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Perrault

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Caravaggio is said to have followed this motto. I don't know any episode to this statement, his biographical data shows risky situations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caravaggio
He was jailed on several occasions, vandalized his own apartment, and ultimately had a death sentence pronounced against him by the Pope after killing a young man, possibly unintentionally, on May 29, 1606.
An early published notice on him, dating from 1604 and describing his lifestyle three years previously, recounts that "after a fortnight's work he will swagger about for a month or two with a sword at his side and a servant following him, from one ball-court to the next, ever ready to engage in a fight or an argument, so that it is most awkward to get along with him."[8] In 1606 he killed a young man in a brawl and fled from Rome with a price on his head. He was involved in a brawl in Malta in 1608, and another in Naples in 1609, possibly a deliberate attempt on his life by unidentified enemies. This encounter left him severely injured. A year later, at the age of 38, he died under mysterious circumstances in Porto Ercole in Tuscany, reportedly from a fever while on his way to Rome to receive a pardon.

Famous while he lived, Caravaggio was forgotten almost immediately after his death, and it was only in the 20th century that his importance to the development of Western art was rediscovered.


He had interesting topics in 1594, when he had left his earlier master:

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Fortune teller I (1594)

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Fortune-teller II (1595)

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Cardsharps (1594)

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The Cabinet of Eros: Renaissance Mythological Painting and the Studiolo of Isabella D'Este
Stephen John Campbell
Yale University Press, 2004 - 402 Seiten

https://books.google.de/books?id=z_GBq3 ... ng&f=false

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The figure "Decima Musa" is brought together with Sappho and Isabella and the motto "nec spe nec metu".

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Lorenzo Costa (1504-06): "Coronation of a Lady" or "Amor crowns Isabella d'Este]"
Last edited by Huck on 01 Nov 2016, 08:05, edited 1 time in total.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Collection "nec spe, nec metu"

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Charles II de Bourbon (1434–September 13, 1488) ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I ... of_Bourbon
... used the motto "N’espoir ny peur (neither hope nor fear)", as reported by Steve Mangan at ...

viewtopic.php?f=11&p=17812#p17801
SteveM wrote:
SteveM wrote: Another person who used the motto, albeit in French (but nonetheless which shows it was known pre-Isabelle), was Charles II, Duke of Bourbon (1434 - 1488), who had an emblem of a flaming sword with the motto N’espoir ny peur (neither hope nor fear).
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It is also to be found on a 15th century tapestry in the Cathedral of Sens showing the adoration of the magi:

https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=e- ... ir&f=false
I found ...
Tapestry in the Renaissance: Art and Magnificence
Thomas P. Campbell, Metropolitan Museum of Art (New York, N.Y.)
Metropolitan Museum of Art, 2002 - 594 Seiten
https://books.google.de/books?id=RrW456 ... ur&f=false

The book offers a better view on the tapestry of the 3 Magi. A detail with the flame and the sword and the motto (which appears very often at the full picture) ...

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At page 79 is a description of the tapestry ...

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.. after reading it, I get doubts, if this dating (1476-88) is a 100% secure dating.

The tapestry is described as being of rather good quality for late 15th century, which should give reason to have suspicions of the correctness of the date. It arrives late in Sens, and as it seems, not directly from the Charles II context.

The biography of Charles II of Bourbon is very interesting. He was papal legate in Avignon from 1472-1476 ...

English wiki
From 1472 to 1476, he was incumbent as the papal legate at Avignon though he only arrived there November 23, 1473.[11][12] In May 23, 1474, the Pope Sixtus IV appoints his nephew Giuliano della Rovere as bishop of Avignon, and 2 years later as legate.[12] This set Louis XI and the pope into conflict, with the royal army and papal troops coming to bear. In June 15, 1476,[13] to resolve this difficulty, the king welcomed Giuliano della Rovere at Lyon, so that Charles II accepted the loss of the Avignon legation.[12] This is the reason why, in 1476, he became the administrator of the diocese of Clermont and was made a Cardinal by Sixtus IV.


... amnd 1476 was a a time of hidden scandals, which stayed hidden a long time till our times. We discussed this earlier: What happened really between Lorenzo Zane, Giuliano della Rovere (later pope Julius II) and Girolamo Riario della Rovere (husband of Caterina Sforza)? After this Giuliano had to become legate in Avignon to solve this conflict. And he got his new job just from this Charles de Bourbon II.
A little later Giuliano joined Leonore d'Aragon (wife of Ercole d'Este) in Naples (at home to get her second daughter Beatrix) and Giuliano became godfather of daughter Beatrix (* June 1475). Babe Beatrix stayed then in Naples for education by grandfather Ferrante. And Giuliano was also godfather of Ferrante, second son of Ercole (* September 1377) ... "He was born in Naples, where his mother had gone into seclusion. He was christened on 7 October 1477 with Giuliano della Rovere as his godfather and raised at the Aragonese court in Naples."
http://wikivisually.com/wiki/Ferrante_d ... ki_ph_id_8
So the same procedure as with Beatrix.

And this became later reason for the big trouble and scandal in the d'Este house in Ferrara just in 1504-06, when Isabella Este adapted the innocent manner the innocent motto "nec spe nec metu", which earlier was with a French name used by an opponent of the later pope Julius.

And this shall have happened at random?

The house of Bourbon had its own problems. One member of the house became Charles III of Bourbon, who left the French side in 1521 and died at the sacco di Roma 1527 on the side of Habsburg as a leading general. The family relationship between Charles II and Charles III, however, is complicated. I've to study this.
Last edited by Huck on 01 Nov 2016, 05:27, edited 2 times in total.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Collection "nec spe, nec metu"

3
Huck wrote:IN work

Charles II de Bourbon (1434–September 13, 1488) ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I ... of_Bourbon
... used the motto "N’espoir ny peur (neither hope nor fear)", as reported by Steve Mangan at ...

viewtopic.php?f=11&p=17812#p17801
SteveM wrote:
SteveM wrote: Another person who used the motto, albeit in French (but nonetheless which shows it was known pre-Isabelle), was Charles II, Duke of Bourbon (1434 - 1488), who had an emblem of a flaming sword with the motto N’espoir ny peur (neither hope nor fear).
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It is also to be found on a 15th century tapestry in the Cathedral of Sens showing the adoration of the magi:

https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=e- ... ir&f=false
Yes.
Should be circa 1466 and before 1480.

Though nominated in 1444, the Archeveché de Lyon wasn't administrated by him until 1466.
À la mort de l'archevêque Amédée de Talaru, les chanoines du chapitre cathédral tentent d'imposer au pape et au roi de France leur candidat : Jean de Bourbon. Mais le pape Eugène IV tarde à envoyer la confirmation et Jean renonce de lui-même au poste en proposant Charles de Bourbon son neveu. Le chapitre l'élit alors le 6 juin 1444 à l'âge de 11 ans. Mais le pape casse l'élection, au mépris de la pragmatique sanction, et impose Geoffroy de Vassali, alors archevêque de Viennea . Ce dernier ne prend jamais possession de l'archevêché. En effet, la famille de Bourbon négocie avec lui et il renonce à son titre en octobre 1445. Le roi et le pape acceptent alors la candidature de Charles de Bourbon .
Régence du diocèse
L'archevêché est administré pendant sa minorité par Jean Rollin, évêque d'Autun, de 1446 à 1447, puis par Jean Du Gué, évêque d'Orléans, de 1447 à 1449, et Jean de Bourbon, évêque du Puy, de 1449 à 1466.
https://books.google.fr/books?id=iWcOAA ... on&f=false
Last edited by BOUGEAREL Alain on 31 Oct 2016, 22:16, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Collection "nec spe, nec metu"

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The datation of the Motto of Charles II de Bourbon is probably not 1444 when he was nominated because he was only 11 year s old but 1466 after the 3 "regences" mentionned

Régence du diocèse
L'archevêché est administré pendant sa minorité par Jean Rollin, évêque d'Autun, de 1446 à 1447, puis par Jean Du Gué, évêque d'Orléans, de 1447 à 1449, et Jean de Bourbon, évêque du Puy, de 1449 à 1466.[Ce dernier mandataire s'appuie pour la gestion du diocèse sur l'abbé de Belleville, Étienne de la Chassagne, qui est évêque in partibus]

https://books.google.fr/books?id=iWcOAA ... on&f=false

http://www.histoireeurope.fr/RechercheL ... de+Bourbon

Anyway, it is pre Isabelle d'Este's Motto ...

OT
1466
Since long closely linked to Louis XI and Burgondy, he is also as Ambassador sent to the pope Paul II in 1466
Après le conflit de la ligue du Bien public, Louis XI l'envoie en 1466 auprès du pape Paul II

Letter of recommendation of Louis XI to the Duke of Milan
« Tres chier et tres ame frere et cousin, nous envoions presentement devers Nostre Saint Pere le pape nostre tres chier et tres ame cousin Charles de Bourbon, arcevesque de Lyon, frere de nostre tres chier et tres ame frere et cousin le duc de Bourbonnois et d'Auvergne, ......... Donne a Mehun sur Loire, le XVe jour d'octobre [1466]. LOYS. TOUSTAIN. A nostre tres chier et tres ame frere et cousin le duc de Milan.
» Archives de Milan ; publiée par Joseph Vaesen et Étienne Charavay, Lettres de Louis XI, tome III, p.107-108, Société de l'histoire de France et Librairie Renouard, Paris, 1887.


1468
He negociates for Burgundy once more
En 1468, Charles de Bourbon est à Péronne pour négocier la libération du roi auprès de Charles le Téméraire. Il est en effet, un parent de ce dernier par sa mère

1469
The same Pope that will give in 1469 the autorisation of mariage for Charles VIII and Marie de Bourgogne
En 1469, il accorde une dispense pour permettre le mariage entre Charles de France, fils de Charles VII de France et frère de Louis XI, et Marie de Bourgogne en raison de leur lien de parenté.

Later on
- circa 1473, Légat du Pape en Agignon [le Cardinal Bessarion est chargé de cette recommendation du Pape auprès de Louis XI]
- at Louis Xi death, membre du Conseil de Charles VIII
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Collection "nec spe, nec metu"

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A teaching lesson about impresa of the Gonzaga, between them also "nec spe, nec metu"
http://www.stewardmantova.it/index.php/ ... ei-gonzaga
(one has to click on the center, then it starts)

There is a face in the sun ...

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The sun appears also here ...

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Actually this remember me on ...

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... and also on the condition, that the plan existed, that Galeazzo Maria Sforza should marry one of the Gonzaga daughters. This might have been well the state of May 1465, when Ippolita started her bride journey to Naples, and Lorenzo di Medici participated at the celebrations

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This are appearances of "nec spe, nec metu" in the Gonzaga-show ...

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Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Collection "nec spe, nec metu"

7
(sorry the server for the pictures is momentary down)

Addition to the Lodovico Gonzaga sun:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludovico_ ... _of_Mantua
Ludovico was the son of Gianfrancesco I Gonzaga and Paola Malatesta.

Ludovico followed the path of his father, Gianfrancesco, fighting as a condottiero from as early as 1432, when Gianfrancesco was vice-commander of Francesco Bussone's army.[2] In 1433, he married Barbara of Brandenburg,[1] niece of emperor Sigismund.[2]

Starting from 1436 (perhaps without the approval of his father)[2] he entered the service of the Visconti of the Duchy of Milan. The result was that Gianfrancesco exiled Ludovico from Mantua, together with his wife,[2] naming Carlo Gonzaga as heir. However, in 1438 Gianfrancesco himself was hired by the Visconti, and reconciled with Ludovico in 1441.[2] Ludovico succeeded to the marquisate of Mantua in 1444,[3] although part of the family fiefs went to his brothers Carlo, Gianlucido and Alessandro.[2] At the time, the Mantuan state was reduced in size and in poor conditions after years of war and large expenses.[2]

From 1445 to 1450 Ludovico served as condottiero for Milan, Florence, Venice and Naples, switching his allegiance in order to grant the higher level of peace for his lands.[2] In 1448 he took part in the battle of Caravaggio, and was forced to flee. In 1449 he entered the service of Venice in the league formed with Florence against Milan. In 1450 he received permission to lead an army for King Alfonso of Naples in Lombardy, with the intent of gaining some possessions for himself. However, Francesco Sforza, the new duke of Milan, enticed him with the promise of Lonato, Peschiera and Asola, formerly Mantuan territories but then part of Venice. Venice responded by sacking Castiglione delle Stiviere (1452) and hiring Ludovico's brother, Carlo.[3]

On 14 June 1453 Ludovico routed the troops of Carlo at Goito, but Venetian troops under Niccolò Piccinino thwarted any attempt to regain Asola. The Peace of Lodi (1454) obliged Ludovico to give back all his conquests, and to renounce definitively his claim to the three cities.[3] However, he obtained his brother's land after Carlo's childless death in 1456.
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http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1663 ... pisanello/

Pisanello medal for Lodovico Gonzaga with sun

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http://www.giovannipasetti.it/scrigno/sposi2.htm

The face can be recognized.

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Full picture:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or ... 3c35c5.jpg
The white circle in the upper right contains a sun.
The part, which contains the sun, seems to be in a bad condition. It may or may not have a face inside the sun.
http://www.wga.hu/art/m/mantegna/07/1sposi4.jpg

In the same room (left side) are also some putti, gathered to hold a shield with an inscription. Much more putti are at the ceiling. The room should be rather dominated by the putti

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See also:
http://www.wga.hu/art/m/mantegna/07/2sposi09.jpg

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http://www.rialfri.eu/rialfriWP/opere/m ... ii-gonzaga

"Motto dell’impresa di Ludovico II Gonzaga", dated to 1448

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http://www.palazzote.it/index.php/it/sa ... a-del-sole
La camera era destinata, come tutte quelle del piano terreno, ad ospitare quanti venivano a rendere visita al marchese. La decorazione presenta lo stesso schema che caratterizza tutti gli ambienti destinati ad abitazione: al centro della volta a padiglione l’impresa del sole, legata alla figura di Ludovico Gonzaga, padre di Francesco. L’impresa, assunta da Ludovico dopo la battaglia di Caravaggio del 1448, raffigura il sole splendente con un cartiglio recante il motto “PAR UN DESIR” intrecciato ai raggi. L’immagine simbolica si ricollega al repertorio religioso nel quale il sole è simbolo di Dio, di luce e verità: probabilmente il Gonzaga ha voluto alludere alla protezione divina sulla propria persona . Nelle lunette si sono scoperte le inedite rappresentazioni di trionfi con strumenti musicali a fiato e a corda legati senza dubbio alla passione di Isabella Gonzaga per la musica, e alla destinazione dell’edificio quale luogo di svago e di riposo.
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Gonzaga

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http://www.giovannipasetti.it/asito/m52.htm
Malacarne, studioso mantovano di araldica, così si esprime a proposito delle insegne mantegnesche:
Dunque lo stemma concesso ad Andrea Mantegna dal marchese di Mantova Ludovico Gonzaga si blasona: spaccato: nel I d’argento ad un sole meridiano (posto nel capo) radiato d’oro con cartiglio (o nastro) svolazzante tra i raggi (bianco) caricato del motto par un desir; nel II fasciato d’oro e di nero di quattro pezzi.
Il Gonzaga molto doveva amare Andrea se giunse a concedere la sua arme, pur se brisata, non solo, ma anche la sua impresa del sole che Attilio Portioli narra Ludovico avesse assunto dopo l’infelice giornata della battaglia di Caravaggio avvenuta il 5 settembre del 1448, nella quale perse molti dei suoi oggetti personali.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Collection "nec spe, nec metu"

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http://genealogy.euweb.cz/gonzaga/gonzaga2.html
Relationship of the house Bourbon with the house of Gonzaga

Earlier studies ...

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=612&p=9118&hilit=c ... zaga#p9118
I've stumbled in it about a person "Gilbert de Bourbon Monpensier", also called "il Delfino", in 1485 called a French ambassador, who was in 1485 guest in Ferrara. He was married to Chiara Gonzaga, a sister of Gian Francesco Gonzaga, who was then engaged to Isabella d'Este (and married her in 1489).

The wedding took place either February 1481 or 1482. Gilbert seems to have had some importance for the French king Charles VIII, he got important positions then. Finally he became Vice-king of Naples in 1494 (during the invasion of Charles VIII in Italy), was taken prisoner and died of fever in 1496.

Chiara seems to be the earliest Mantovan princess, which married to the French region. As already noted earlier, a much later Gonzaga princess became of importance for the first Tarot rules in 1637, a relationship, which developed, when a 3rd son of the Gonzaga-family married a French heiress in 1561.

http://genealogy.euweb.cz/gonzaga/gonzaga2.html

F5. Chiara (or Clara) Gonzaga *1.7.1464, +2.6.1503; m.24.2.1481 Gilbert I de Bourbon Cte de Montpensier, Duca di Sessa (*1443 +15.10.1496)

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Clara
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clara_Gonzaga
her husband
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert,_C ... ontpensier

one of her children, Charles III., duke of Bourbon (rather prominent, fought in Pavia at the side of Charles V., emperor, against France ... was killed during the Sacco di Roma)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II ... of_Bourbon

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In the question of Philibert de Chalon, a prince in Franche-Comte, (who played Tarocchi in Italy in the army of Charles V.) ....
Bourbon had more reason to know Tarocchi: He had an Italian mother (Clara of Gonzaga with a Bavarian mother and Barbara of Brandenburg as grand-mother), and he had various military operations in Italy since 1507, most time for France, since 1423 against France. Enough opportunity to learn the game.
Clara's biography has interesting details:
She maintained a correspondence with her sister-in-law, Isabella d'Este.
... though Isabella was about 10 years younger and likely Clara had not much opportunity to see her.

Her husband became viceroy of Naples in the war France-Naples 1494/95 and died in Italy, likely as a victim in the very late fights 1496.
Clara's paternal grandparents were Ludovico III Gonzaga and Barbara of Brandenburg; and her maternal grandparents were Albert III, Duke of Bavaria and Anna of Brunswick-Grubenhagen-Einbeck, daughter of Duke Erich I of Brunswick-Salzderhelden and Elisabeth of Brunswick-Göttingen.
3/4 of her ancestors were German by birth. Well, this is true for all the Gonzaga of that generation. This situation of Gonzaga in Mantova prepared the later good contacts between Isabella and cardinal Gurk and Isabella's special international role in the war negotiations.

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Bourbon-house

http://genealogy.euweb.cz/capet/capet22.html
E1. Duc Charles I de Bourbon et d'Auvergne, *1401, +Chateau de Moulins 1456, bur Souvigny; m.Autun 17.9.1425 Agnes de Bourgogne (*1407 +1.12.1476)
-- F1. Duc Jean II de Bourbon et d'Auvergne, *1426, +Chateau de Moulins 1488, bur Souvigny; 1m: Chateau de Moulins 1447 Jeanne of France (*1430 +1482); 2m: St.Cloud 1484 Catherine (+Moulins 1487, bur there) dau.of Jacques d'Armagnac, Duc de Nemours; 3m: 1487 Jeanne (*1465 +1512, bur Vic-le-Comte) dau.of Jean de Bourbon, Cte de Vendome
---- G1. Jean, Cte de Clermont, *Moulins 1487, +1487
---- G2. Louis, Cte de Clermont, *and +1488
[Jean II had the following illegitimate children]:
---- G3. [by Marguerite de Brunant] Mathieu "le Grand Batard de Bourbon", Baron de la Roche-en-Renier, +Chateau de Chambrou-en-Forez 1505
[by unknown mothers]:
---- G4. Hector, batard de Bourbon, Archbp of Toulouse, +1502, bur Toulouse
---- G5. Pierre, batard de Bourbon, +young
---- G6. Marie, batarde de Bourbon, +1482; m.Chateau de Beseneins-en-Dombes 1470 Jacques de Sainte-Colombe
---- G7. Marguerite, batarde de Bourbon, legitimized 1464, *1445, +1482; m.Moulins 1462 Jean de Ferrieres (+1497)
---- G8. [by Jeanne Louise, dau.of Jean d'Albret, Vcte de Tartas] Charles, batard de Bourbon, Vcte de Lavedan, +1502; m.before 1462 Louise du Lion, Vcts de Lavedan (+after 25.2.1505); for his descendants See HERE
-- F2. Philippe, sn de Beaujeu, *1430, +1440
-- F3. Duc Charles II, Cardinal, Archbishop of Lyon, *Chateau de Moulins 1434, +Lyon 1488, bur there
----- G1. [illegitimate by Gabriele Bastine] Isabelle, +Paris 1497; m.Gilbert de Chantelot
-- F4. Louis, Bp of Liege, *1438, +murdered at Wez, nr Liege 1482, bur St.Lambert; he had illegitimate issue by Katharina von Egmont, Regent of Geldern (*1439 +1496):
---- G1. Pierre de Bourbon, Baron de Busset, *in the Netherlands 1464, +1529; m.1498 Marguerite de Tourzel dit d'Alegre, Dame de Busset (+1531) dau.of Bertrand, sn de Busset, by Isabelle de Levis. For his descendants, See HERE
---- G2. Louis, *1465, +after 26.6.1500
---- G3. Jacques, Grand Prior of the Jesuits in France, *1466, +1537, bur Paris
-- F5. Duc Pierre II de Bourbon et d'Auvergne, *1438, +Chateau de Moulins 1503, bur Souvigny; m.1473 Anne of France (*1462, +Chateau de Chantelle 1522, bur Souvigny)
---- G1. Cte Charles de Clermont, *1476, +1498
---- G2. Dss Suzanne de Bourbon et d'Auvergne, *1491, +Chateau de Chatellerault 1521, bur Souvigny; m.Chateau du Parc-les-Moulins 1505 Duc Charles III de Bourbon
-- F6. Jacques, *1445, +Bruges 1468, bur there
-- F7. Marie, *1428, +1448; m.1444 Jean d'Anjou, Duke of Lorraine (*1425 +1470)
-- F8. Isabelle, *1436, +Antwerp 25.9.1465, bur there; m.Lille 1454 Duc Charles de Bourgogne (+1477)
-- F9. Catherine, *Liege 1440/42, +Nijmegen 21/22.5.1469, bur St.Stevens Kerk, Nijmegen; m.Brugges 28.12.1463 Duke Adolf of Geldern (*12.2.1438 +22.7.1477)
-- F10. Jeanne, *1442, +1493; m.Brussels 1467 Jean II de Chalon, Pr d'Orange (+1502)
-- F11. Marguerite, *5.2.1438/44, +Chateau du Pont-Ains 24.4.1483; m.Moulins 6.4.1472 Duke Filippo II of Savoy (*5.2.1438 +7.11.1497)
-- F12. [illegitimate by Jeanne de Bournan] Louis "l'Admiral de Bourbon" legitimized 1463, Cte de Roussillon-en-Dauphine et de Ligny, +Valognes 1487, bur there; m.1466 Jeanne (+1519) illegitimate dau.of King Louis XI
---- G1. Charles, Cte de Roussillon et de Ligny, +1510; m.1506 Anne (+1530) dau.of Godefroi de La Tour, Baron de Montgascon
---- G2. Suzanne, Cts de Roussillon et de Ligny, *1466, +1531; 1m: Jean de Chabannes, Cte de Dammartin; 2m: ca 1510 Charles, sn de Boulainvilliers (+1529)
---- G3. Anne, Dame de Mirabeau; m.Jean II, Baron d'Arpajon
---- G4. [illegitimate] Jean batard de Bourbon, Abbot of Senilly, *1465, +after 1488
[illegitimate kids by unknown mothers]:
-- F13. Renaud, Archbishop of Narbonne, +St.Pierre-de-Montverdun 1483, bur there; he had illegitimate kids:
---- G1. Charles, Bp of Clermont, *1461, +Chateau de Beauregard 1504
---- G2. Suzanne, legitimized 1501; m.1494 Louis de Gonstaves, sn de Chazelles
-- F14. Pierre, a priest, sn du Bois-d'Yoin-en-Lyonnais +1490
---- G1. [illegitimate] Antoinette, batarde de Bourbon; m.1492 Pierre Dyenne
---- G2. [illegitimate] Catherine, batarde de Bourbon; m.1492 Pierre Holiflant
-- F15. Jeanne, legitimized 1492; m.1492 Jean du Fay, sn de Bray-en-Touraine
-- F16. Charlotte, batarde de Bourbon, +1489; m.ca 1488 Odilles de Senay
-- F17. Sidoine, batarde de Bourbon, Dame de Tison; m.1460 Rene, sn de Bus
-- F18. Catherine, batarde de Bourbon, legitimized 1452, Abbess of St.Claire-d'Aigueperse
E2. Louis, Cte de Forez, *1403, +Paris 1412, bur Senlis
E3. Louis "le Bon" de Bourbon, Cte de Clermont, de Sancerre et de Montpensier, Dauphin d'Auvergne, +V.1486, bur Aigueperse; 1m: 1428 Jeanne, Cts de Clermont-en-Auvergne et de Sancerre, Dauphine d'Auvegne (+1436) dau.of Cte Berauld III; 2m: 15.2.1442 Gabrielle de La Tour (+1486)
-- F1. Gilbert, Cte de Montpensier, Dauphin d'Auvergne, Archduke of Sessa, Viceroy of Naples, *1443, +Pozzuolo 15.10.1496, bur Aigueperse; m.24.2.1482 Clara Gonzaga (*1.7.1464, +2.6.1503)
---- G1. Cte Louis II de Montpensier, Dauphin d'Auvergne, *1483, +Naples 1501, bur Aigueperse
----G2. Duc Charles III de Bourbon et d'Auvergne, etc *17.2.1490, +k.a.Rome 1527, bur Castello di Gaetz; m.1505 his cousin Dss Suzanne de Bourbon, etc (*1491 +1521)
------ H1. Fran蔞is, Cte de Clermont, *Chateau de Moulins 1517, +Chateau de Chatellerault 1518
------ H2.& H3. twins, *and +1518
------ H4. [illegitimate by Alaigne, a Mongol princess related to Akhar-Khan of Delhi] Jean Philippe, a courtier of the khan, *1525, +after 1560; m.a sister of the khan; This son, Jean Philippe de Bourbon, ended up as a courtier of the Khan in Delhi, India. His descendants were the Bourbons of Bhopal, for whom see Vitold de Golish, Splendeur et Crepuscule des Maharajas, See HERE
------ H5. [illegitimate] Catherine, batarde de Bourbon; m.Bertrand Salmart, sn de Ressis
---- G3. Fran蔞is, Duc de Chatellerault, *1492, +k.a. Marignano 1515
---- G4. Louise, Dss de Montpensier, Dauphine d'Auvergne, *1482, +1561, bur Champigny; 1m: St.Pierre-le-Moustier 1499 Andre III de Chauvigny, Pr de Deols, Vcte de Brosse (+4.1.1503); 2m: Moulins 21.3.1504 !roglo!/1505 Louis I de Bourbon-Montpensier, Pr de la Roche-sur-Yon (*1473 +1520)
---- G5. Ren嶪, Dame de Mercoeur, *1494, +Nancy 26.5.1539, bur St.Georges, Nancy; m.ch漮eau d'Amboise 26.6.1515 Duke Antoine II of Lorraine (*4.6.1489 +14.6.1544)
---- G6. Anne, *1495, +in Spain 1510
-- F2. Jean, *1445, +1485
-- F3. Gabrielle, Cts de Benon, *1447, +1516; m.1485 Louis de la Tremoille, Pr de Talmond (+1525)
-- F4. Charlotte, *1449, +1478; m.1468 Wolfart van Borsselen, Cte de Grandpre, Earl of Buchan (+1487)
E4. [illegitimate] Jean, batard de Bourbon, Cte de Velay, Bp of Puy, +Rembert-en-Forez 1485, bur Cluny
E5. [illegitimate] Alexandre, batard de Bourbon, a priest, +drowned at Bar-sur-Aube 1440
E6. [illegitimate] Guy batard, de Bourbon, +1442
E7. [illegitimate] Marguerite, batarde de Bourbon; m.1433/6 Rodrigo de Villandrado, Cde de Ribadeo
E8. [illegitimate] Edmee, batarde de Bourbon
Huck
http://trionfi.com

The dauphin [Delfin] of Auvergne and Claire de Gonzague

9
Hi Huck

Gilbert de Bourbon Montpensier Comte dauphin {delfin] d'Auvergne de son vivant appelé aussi en Italien Il Delfino

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https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_de_Montpensier


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Yes here, we have a [Delfin]= Dauphin(of Auvergne), married Mantua 1481 to Claire de Gonzague and further on Crownded Vice - King of Naples (1495) linked before to Louis XI (Burgondy)Charles VIII (Naples)

He did not attend his wedding probably in February 23 1481 before the arrival of the Mantegna in his city July 22 1481;
Le mariage eut lieu par procuration ; Gilbert était représenté par ses envoyés, Guillaume Coiffier, son trésorier, et Jean de Tersac, seigneur de Ligonne. La veille avait été signé le contrat de mariage prévoyant une riche dot. Cf. Laurent Vissière, loc. cit., pp. 163 et 166.
About the dot of his wife : Le tableau provient de l'église d'Aigueperse en Auvergne. Sa présence dans la région pourrait s’expliquer s’il a été offert à l’occasion du mariage, en 1481, de la fille du protecteur de Mantegna, Federico Gonzaga, marquis de Mantoue, avec Gilbert de Bourbon, comte de Montpensier.

Gilbert de Bourbon-Montpensier épousa [par procuration] en la cathédrale de Mantoue le 25 février 1481 Claire de Gonzague (°1464-† 1503), fille de Frédéric Ier, marquis de Mantoue et de Marguerite de Bavière.
Ercole d' Este is said to have been present :
p.150 https://books.google.fr/books?id=zk5KjC ... er&f=false

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Le tableau de Mantegna, dit le saint Sébastien d'Aigueperse, vendu au musée du Louvre en 1910, faisait sans doute partie de la dot et arriva peut-être à Aigueperse en même temps que Claire, le 22 juillet 1481.

La princesse Claire de Gonzague
C'est d'abord l'arrivée à Aigueperse d'une princesse venue de Mantoue, Claire de Gonzague, que vient d'épouser Gilbert de Montpensier. Nicole Dupont-Pierrart présente nombre de personnages qui l'accompagnèrent, tout un personnel à son service : ses suivantes, ses médecins, ses domestiques, etc. La vie à Aigueperse, telle qu'organisée par la jeune Italienne, apparaît ainsi peu à peu et on peut suivre ses séjours dans différents châteaux de la région et à la cour de Moulins.


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Revised November 6 2016 :
Her attitude, crown and dress seem "similar" to sme details of the so-caed Popess of the Goldschidt no?
Nevertheless, she is only the first Lady of Anne de Bretagne, Queeb of France : wedding in 1491 with King Charles VIII : viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1102&p=17877#p17877.
This hierachy leeds to prefer Anne de Bretagne as Kneeling Lady and Claire de Gonzague behing her or at her side.

Claire de Gonzague, now dauphine d'Auvergne, comtesse de Clermont. is in Aigueperse in July 1481 with the Mantegna and other preious things (her dot was a "rich" one]
Born in Mantoua , she is buried along with her husband in the Chapelle of Aigueperse.
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1.Née en 1464 au château Saint Georges de Mantoue, Claire de Gonzague grandit au sein d'une cour très raffinée, celle des marquis de Gonzague, condottieres et mécènes, commanditaires du peintre le plus réputé de l'époque, Andrea Mantegna.
2.Après son mariage en 1481 avec le comte Gilbert de Bourbon-Montpensier, elle devient dame d'honneur de la reine Anne de Bretagne et accueille des artistes et des réfugiés italiens dans son château d'Aigueperse.
3.A partir de 1493, la comtesse joue un rôle d'intermédiaire entre son frère François de Gonzague et le roi de France. Lors de la première campagne d'Italie en septembre 1494, Gilbert de Montpensier accompagne Charles VIII, qui le nomme vice-roi de Naples l'année suivante.
[In some manner, during the two years 1495-1496, when her husband is Vice- King of Naples, she is the Vice-Queen - the King of Naples being Charles VIII and the Queen by consequence Anne de Bretagne ]
4. C'est à Mantoue où elle est l'hôte de sa belle-soeur Isabelle d'Este que Claire apprend la mort de son époux le 9 novembre 1496 à Pouzzoles.

5. Devenue veuve, elle bénéficie de la protection du roi et tente de jouer un rôle politique, incitant François à maintenir de bons rapports avec Louis XII qui, après le duché de Milan, envisage de conquérir le petit marquisat. Tout au long de la crise politique de 1500, la comtesse met son talent de négociatrice au service de son frère pour sauver son état.
6. Epuisée par la maladie qui la ronge depuis de nombreuses années, elle meurt très chrétiennement le 2 juin 1503. Selon son désir, elle est inhumée dans la Sainte-Chapelle d'Aigueperse auprès de son époux Gilbert de Bourbon-Montpensier.

(Cf the Thesis in history : http://www.theses.fr/2013LIL30047)
She is now known to having played a discred but determinated role in the expedition of 1494-1496
See also : Une Princesse Italienne à la Cour de France
La vie de cour en France et en Italie au XVe siècle est évoquée à travers une abondante correspondance entre Claire et différentes personnalités mantouanes, notamment son frère le marquis François de Gonzague ainsi que son épouse la brillante Isabelle d'Este. L’influence culturelle et politique que cette jeune princesse, férue d’intrigues, a pu exercer à la cour de France, ressort dans de nombreuses missives à caractère privé ou public.
http://www.septentrion.com/en/livre/?GC ... 4100028400

Note à propos de la Cour de France et de la cour des Boubons en Boubonnais capitale Moulins :
(Jean II, surnommé Le Bon, comme son aïeul, œuvra lui aussi pour sa capitale. À la fin de la guerre de Cent Ans, il fait édifier une seconde collégiale, en remplacement de la première, un premier Jacquemart (beffroi). On peut encore observer des maisons de cette époque dans le vieux Moulins (Hôtel Demoret, rue Grenier et rue de Orfèvres13).
La cour ducale est brillante et réputée. Au nombre des artistes qui y séjournent, on compte Michel Colombe, Jean de Rouen, et même François Villon, en 1457
Lorsque Jean II participe à la Ligue du Bien public en 1465, le roi Louis XI assiège et prend sa capitale. Mort en 1488, sans héritier légitime, ses successeurs sont ses frères : Charles II, cardinal archevêque-comte de Lyon, qui abdique rapidement, et Pierre II.

Note about the brother of Pierre II, Bishop Charles II de Bourbon whose Motto predates Isabelle d'Este's :viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1122&p=17818#p17818

Pierre II de Bourbon : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_II_de_Bourbon

C’est à l’époque de Pierre II, sous les auspices d’Anne de France, son épouse et fille de Louis XI, que la renommée de Moulins et la puissance de la famille ducale atteignent leur apogée, même si la peste ronge la ville avec virulence dès la fin du xve siècle, et ce jusqu’au milieu du xvie siècle. On y peint le fameux triptyque du Maître de Moulins, la duchesse fait réaménager l’aile Nord du palais ducal (l’actuel pavillon Anne de Beaujeu), on y rédige Les enseignements d'Anne de France à sa fille Suzanne de Bourbon. L’administration ducale, réorganisée et modernisée14, compte près de 1 650 fonctionnaires, rien que dans Moulins11.
En 1494, Charles VIII projette d’envahir l’Italie, et pendant qu’il reste à l’étranger, il confie la famille royale et le gouvernement de la France au duc, qu’il nomme lieutenant-général du royaume. Pierre II ne va pas s’installer à Paris, mais, avec la famille royale, reste à Moulins, qui devient alors la véritable capitale du pays11. Il restitue ses pouvoirs, en 1495, à Lyon, au roi. En 1503, le duc meurt. Sa fille, Suzanne, devient duchesse de Bourbon, jusqu’à son mariage avec Charles de Montpensier, en 1505, qui deviendra Charles III de Bourbon.




He was engaged in the war against Burgundy : premières armes contre Charles le Téméraire, duc de Bourgogne en 1471 et en 1475
He is with Charles VIII : Enfin, il accompagne Charles VIII dans la première guerre d'Italie, et resta à Naples comme vice-roi. 1495
Cousin of the King Charles VIII, he leads the army de terre.
Gilbert de Montpensier, cousin du roiCharles VIII, fut nommé capitaine général des troupes de terre
http://www.histoire-fr.com/valois_charles8_3.htm
https://books.google.fr/books?

He doesn't appear to be very appreciated as a war leader : it seems he woud have been a litte azy, getting up late etc : p.249 https://books.google.fr/books?id=TTFiAA ... er&f=false
This appreciation does not correspond to the reality : after Charles VIII departure, he will resistalmost alone in Naples :
http://www.histoireeurope.fr/RechercheL ... arles+VIII



You wtote :
I've stumbled in it about a person "Gilbert de Bourbon Monpensier", also called "il Delfino", in 1485 called a French ambassador, who was in 1485 guest in Ferrara. He was married to Chiara Gonzaga, a sister of Gian Francesco Gonzaga, who was then engaged to Isabella d'Este (and married her in 1489).

The wedding took place either February 1481 or 1482. Gilbert seems to have had some importance for the French king Charles VIII, he got important positions then. Finally he became Vice-king of Naples in 1494 (during the invasion of Charles VIII in Italy), was taken prisoner and died of fever in 1496.

Chiara seems to be the earliest Mantovan princess, which married to the French region. As already noted earlier, a much later Gonzaga princess became of importance for the first Tarot rules in 1637, a relationship, which developed, when a 3rd son of the Gonzaga-family married a French heiress in 1561.

http://genealogy.euweb.cz/gonzaga/gonzaga2.html

F5. Chiara (or Clara) Gonzaga *1.7.1464, +2.6.1503; m.24.2.1481 Gilbert I de Bourbon Cte de Montpensier, Duca di Sessa (*1443 +15.10.1496)



Why "Il Delfino" for Gilbert de Bourbon Montpensier? In 1485, he is not yet Dauphin of Auvergne but will be in next yaer in 1486 when Louis Ier e Bourbon dies.
Yet, he will bear the name of Comte Dauphin= Delfine while his father is still alive.
Du vivant de son père, il porta le titre de comte-dauphin= delfin
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His title od Dauphin = Delfin is specific of the Dauphins = Delfins of Auvergne heridited since centuries...
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des ... 27Auvergne

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The word Dauphin in French refers to :
- the Delfin that is the Dauphin of Auvergne
- the Delfin of the Dauphin, hear of the King of France


With Gilles de Bourbon Montpensier, we are getting into a complex but pertinent study.
In fact in France, we have 2 Dauphins Delfins but coming both from the Dauphin Delfin du Viennois :
one is the one we have already studied (the Dauphin Delfinof Viennois which will become the Delphin Dauphin of France and the other is the Dauphin= Delfin d'Auvergne which leads, , we'll see how to Gilles de Bourbon

Coming back many centuries before to the origin of the Dauphin= Delfin of Auvergne..

Guillaume VII is at the origin of the Comté d'Auvergne : 1147.
His wife is the Marquessa of Albon (1115-1196).
She was the daugter of the Comte of Viennois , Guigues IV. His surname was Dauphin
So the Marquessacalled her son, Dauphin in memory of his granfather.
L'origine du nom de dauphin d'Auvergne vient du fait que la femme de Guillaume VII, Marquise d'Albon (v. 1115-1196), était la fille du comte du Viennois Guigues IV, dont le surnom, ou le second prénom, était Dauphin. Le fils de Guillaume et de la Marquise fut également prénommé Dauphin, en mémoire de son grand-père. Dauphin est un prénom rare, mais attesté au Moyen Âge.
Well that's the main consenus even if some rare historians consider that Dauphin wasn't firsta surname but a noble tile.
Whatsoever, since 1281 ,
La compilation des titres contenus dans les chartes de l'époque par Pierre-François Fournier (« L'évolution du mot dauphin en Auvergne au Moyen Âge », Bibliothèque de l'École des Chartes, 1930) fait clairement apparaître que Guillaume VII et ses successeurs se qualifièrent d'abord comtes d'Auvergne et de Clermont, puis, à partir de 1281, comtes de Clermont et dauphins d'Auvergne (testament de Robert II, Robertus comes Claromontensis et Alvernie Delphinus). Les successeurs de Robert II se nommeront tous dauphin d'Auvergne.
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The succession by blood stops in 1426.
La chronologie des dauphins d'Auvergne du sang s'arrête à la mort de Béraud III en 1426. .
The last Dauphine, daugter of the last Dauphin d'Auvergne brings then the title of Dauphin to the House of BOURBON.
Sa fille Jeanne, comtesse de Clermont et dauphine d'Auvergne, ayant apporté le titre à la maison de Bourbon
Louis de Montpensier épouse en 1426 Jeanne (1412 - † 1436), dauphine d'Auvergne, comtesse de Clermont et Sancerre, fille de Béraud III, qui lui transmit ce titre, et de Jeanne de la Tour d'Auvergne, mais celle-ci meurt sans laisser d'enfant. L'héritier du dauphiné d'Auvergne était son frère aîné, qui le lui céda.[/i]

The Comtes and Dukes of Montpensier :

Louis Ier de Montpensier :
1428-1486 : Louis Ier de Bourbon (v. 1403-1486), dit Louis le Bon, comte de Montpensier
Époux de la précédente, laquelle, selon certains auteurs, lui aurait transmis le titre plutôt qu'à leur fils commun

1486-1496 : Gilbert de Bourbon-Montpensier (v. 1448-1496)



later on :
1496-1501 : Louis II de Bourbon-Montpensier (v. 1483-1501)
1501-1525 : Charles III de Bourbon (1490-1527), le connétable de Bourbon
1525-1538 : confisqué et réuni au domaine royal
Last edited by BOUGEAREL Alain on 05 Nov 2016, 23:27, edited 14 times in total.
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Goldschidt / Gilbert de Montpensier and Claire de Gonzague

10
SYNTHESIS

The two suggestions of Huck Meyer linked to Gilbert de Boubon Montpensier and to Claire de Gonzague are relevant to me.
Possibility of Gilbert de Bourbon Montpensier also known as IL DELFINO appears quite plausible and i's identification with the s called "Crowned Delfin Dauphin" of the Goldschmit also.

Added November 6 2016 :
Nevertheless, the hierachy berween the Comtesse Claire de Gonzague and the futur Queen Anne de Bretagne makes me give the preference to Anne de Bretagne as Kneeling Lady and maybe also Lady with Castle .

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1102&p=17877#p17877
Last edited by BOUGEAREL Alain on 05 Nov 2016, 23:33, edited 16 times in total.
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie
cron