Re: Problems with positing the Papi in the ur-Tarot

#101
From Andrea Vitali I learn of another reference to the tarot as depicting the struggle of between factions, which in Florence weren't just Guelfs and Ghibellines, but then White and Black Guelfs, etc. It is from a19th century Tuscan historian [added later: actually, novelist and politician], Francesco Domenico Guerrazzi,in the work L’Assedio di Firenze (Chapters XXX, Tome III, Second Edition, Paris, Baudry Library - H. Bossange et C., 1836):
Nella tenda di Filiberto principe di Orange giuocavano chi a dadi, chi a scacchi, giuochi, se la tradizione ci racconta il vero, inventati da Palamede all'assedio di Troia; i più a carte, come furono inventate dal Grignoart per trastullo alla imbecillità di Carlo VI re di Francia, o modificate a tarocchi, ritrovato non invidiabile degl'ingegni fiorentini, i quali vollero significare nei re, nel diavolo, nel papa, e nelle rimanenti figure, scherno o ira contro le fazioni prevalse nel governo della repubblica.

(In the tent of Filiberto prince of Orange they played games, some at dice, some at chess, games, if tradition tells us the truth, invented by Palamede at the siege of Troy; more at cards, as they were invented by Grignoart as a game for the imbecility of Charles VI, king of France, or modified to tarots, found unenviable by Florentine geniuses, who wanted to signify in the kings, the devil, the pope, and the remaining figures, mockery or anger against the factions that prevailed in the government of the republic.

Re: Problems with positing the Papi in the ur-Tarot

#103
Good find, Andrea and Mike!

"Grignoart" is of course Jacquemin "Gringonneur," the artist named in royal account books kept by Charles Poupart in 1392, recorded by Menestrier in 1704 but now lost.

Maybe Francesco Domenico Guerrazzi is here crediting Florence with the invention ("ritrovato" can be "invented") of tarocchi. But I do find it odd phrasing, and he goes on in that paragraph to criticize card-playing, albeit with the cards that nowadays signify "più nulla," nothing anymore. So I think he finds the old tarocchi interesting for its social commentary, but generally disapproves of cards.
Image

Re: Problems with positing the Papi in the ur-Tarot

#105
Yes. good question, Huck. I realized after posting that I should not have said "historian", as that was not Andrea's word. He called Guerrazzi, "an important Italian scholar," and I jumped to a conclusion. Actually, Wikipedia speaks of "his most famous novel, L'Assedio di Firenze - based on and greatly glorifying the life of the 16th Century Florentine soldier Francesco Ferruccio."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco ... _Guerrazzi
Andrea meant the quote, and I did, too, solely as a reflection of what some seem to have believed in Tuscany at that time, i.e. 1836. He was a novelist and politician, not a historian. How much his novels reflected actual historical research is another question. He must have done some, because he wrote about actual people and events. But he cannot be relied upon as a historian.

Re: Problems with positing the Papi in the ur-Tarot

#106
Thanks.
He mentioned Philibert of Chalons and we know (as far I remember from French sources), that Philibert was known for Tarocchi playing in Italy. So somewhere must (or likely should) be Italian sources, which report something similar, from which the author of 1836 was informed.

Giornali del principe d'Orange [Filiberto di Chalon] nelle guerre d'Italia, dal 1526 al 1530 (1897)
https://archive.org/stream/giornalidelp ... g_djvu.txt
... (other formats are available)
Possibly that, what Depaulis presented ...
Mars 1527,

Le 2 Mons.^ et son train près de Modène.

Le 3 Mons.^ et son train au camp de la Bastide. *

Du 8 au 28 Mons.' et son train au camp, près
Saint-Jehan. *

Le 15 Mons/ de Bourbon digna au logis. ^

Le 31 Mons.^ et son train partirent du camp
de Saint-Jehan et vindrent près de Bologne.

Le 6 deux pièces de ruban de soye noire pour
mettre en la robe de Mons.^

Le 7 six escus à Mons.^ pour jouer au tarau ; ^
— 2O0 escus pour payer le Ture Moreau "^ que
IVIons.^ fit acheter a Plaisance. — 10 escus à huit
trompettes du Due de Ferrare qui ont joué devant
Mons.^

Le 8 dix escus à Mons/ pour jouer.

Le 26 seize escus à Mons.^ pour jouer au ta-
rau;
— Cinquante quattro casaques de drap bi-
* LiO scudiere Visemal.

* Jehan de Falerans scudiere del Principe.
^ LtSL Bastìa nel Modenese.

* San Giovanni nel Bolognese.

* Pranzò nell'alloggio del Principe.
' Per giuocare a' Tarocchi.

" Il turco moro.

-( 14 ì-

garré de blanc, violet et noir, les quelles Mons.'^
a donne aux chevaux légers de sa compagnie et
cent cinquante bannerolles de taifetas des dites
couleurs, pour mettre és lances, armet, et tètes de
chevalx et pour les robes des pages.

Avril 1527.
Yes, likely that, what Depaulis had ... but this source has a later date (1897)

One further note at page 20 (Tarau June 1527)

Another note at page 30 (Tarau August 1527)

A better view at this link ...
4 "Tarau" notes, pages 13 (March 1527) + 20 (June 1527) + 30 (August 1527)
https://archive.org/details/giornalidel ... 3/mode/2up
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Problems with positing the Papi in the ur-Tarot

#108
Events in Italy, Sacco di Roma
Die wegen des ungültig gewordenen Vertrages von Madrid nicht erlangten Herzogtümer Oberitaliens, deren Reichtum zur Finanzierung der Söldnerarmee nötig gewesen wäre, der Wechsel des englischen Königs Heinrich VIII. von Karls Allianz auf die Seite der Liga von Cognac, der religiöse Konflikt innerhalb Deutschlands zwischen Lutheranern und Katholiken (siehe Reichstag zu Worms) sowie der jahrelange Kampf der deutschen Landsknechte unter Karl V. gegen einen Papst, den sie niemals direkt attackieren durften, sorgte für großen Unmut bei den Truppen Karls V. in Norditalien. Sie waren seit der Schlacht von Pavia nicht mehr regelmäßig bezahlt worden, hatten keinerlei Verstärkung erhalten und mussten sich selbst versorgen.

Die brisante Lage entlud sich in einem Söldneraufstand im März 1527, bei dem der Anführer der deutschen Landsknechte, Georg von Frundsberg, der im November 1526 mit über zehntausend Mann die Alpen überquert hatte, beim Versuch, seine Truppe zu beschwichtigen, einen Schlaganfall erlitt. Die nun von Charles III. de Bourbon-Montpensier, Connétable von Frankreich, angeführten, aber in keiner Weise gezügelten Truppen marschierten zuerst auf Florenz, um sich dort für ihre Anstrengungen zu entlohnen und zu versorgen.

Eine Armee der Liga von Cognac war jedoch in Florenz stationiert und hielt die Stadt gegen die Angreifer, die daraufhin zur Belagerung übergingen. In den umliegenden Ländereien gab es zu Beginn des Jahres 1527 nicht genügend Nahrungsmittel, sodass sich die Situation der Belagerer laufend verschlechterte. Am 16. März 1527 verweigerten die Söldner ihren Truppenführern jeglichen Gehorsam und beschlossen, sich an Papst Clemens VII. zu rächen, den sie für ihre Lage verantwortlich machten. Sie ließen das schwere Belagerungsgerät vor den Toren von Florenz zurück und marschierten auf Rom.

Papst Clemens VII. versuchte vergebens, de Bourbon mit einer großen Summe Geldes zu bestechen, um das bevorstehende Unglück abzuwenden. Doch weder nahm der sie an, noch hätte die Bestechung etwas genützt, da das Söldnerheer keinem Führer mehr gehorchte. Am 4. Mai 1527 erreichten die Landsknechte die Ländereien um die Stadt Rom; am frühen Morgen des 6. Mai 1527 setzte das Heer zur Erstürmung der Stadt an. Die wenigen in Rom befindlichen Truppen konnten dem Ansturm nichts entgegensetzen, und so waren die Landsknechte noch am Vormittag in der Stadt. Charles von Bourbon wurde beim Ansturm auf die Stadt beim Erklimmen einer Sturmleiter durch den Schuss aus einer Hakenbüchse getötet. Sie abgefeuert zu haben rühmte sich der Künstler Benvenuto Cellini.
The soldiers of Charles V. didn't get their promised money. The soldiers started a rebellion during the siege of Florence. Inside the rebellion the soldier league leader Frundsberg got a stroke and became serious ill (16th of March). Charles of Bourbon took the leadership, left the siege of Florence and marched towards Rom. At 6th of May Rom was stormed and plundered. Charles of Bourbon was killed at that opportunity. Philibert of Chalon became the next leader of the soldiers.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Problems with positing the Papi in the ur-Tarot

#109
For what it's worth, which may be nothing, I notice a similarity in wording between Guerrazzi, 1836, and a quote from Singer, 1816, p. 240.
https://books.google.com/books?id=ZTMCA ... es&f=false

I highlight the similarities in bold. Singer, quoting Cleland, 1607, about the London of James I of England:
His majesties permission of honest house games, as Cardes, French Cardes, called Taraux, Tables and such like plaies, is sufficient to protect you from those learned men, who think them hazards; ...
And Guerrazzi, 1836:
Nella tenda di Filiberto principe di Orange giuocavano chi a dadi, chi a scacchi, giuochi, se la tradizione ci racconta il vero, inventati da Palamede all'assedio di Troia; i più a carte, come furono inventate dal Grignoart per trastullo alla imbecillità di Carlo VI re di Francia, o modificate a tarocchi, ritrovato non invidiabile degl'ingegni fiorentini, ...

(In the tent of Filiberto prince of Orange they played games, some at dice, some at chess, games, if tradition tells us the truth, invented by Palamede at the siege of Troy; more at cards, as they were invented by Grignoart as a game for the imbecility of Charles VI, king of France, or modified to tarots, found unenviable by Florentine geniuses,... )
Of course there is nothing in Cleland or Singer about Florence, factions, the pope, the devil, or the remaining figures, as Gherrazzi goes on to tell us. But it is as if he were embellishing the quote in Singer with the aid of other sources he has read, even about London, including about Philabert but perhaps also from Bologna, all pertaining to tarocchi, to make his book more interesting. Or is Guerrazzi just using a standard way of talking about table games, such as cards and "tables", i.e. board games, repeated ad nauseum in his time?

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