There is a more exact date, as I quoted you in another AE post, with date of (TarotL) source:Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: ↑07 Dec 2017, 23:24
Yes, it couldn't be earlier than late 2004 in any case, since I didn't start working at the library until May 2004, and didn't start making the digital catalogue of the library until the fall of that year.
I stand corrected. These sources were only new to me. Thanks for posting your 2009 article, Ross, I hadn't been aware of it; there are quite a few things there I didn't know. Your translations are really good, too; I could have saved myself and Andrea some effort. And thanks to both of you for tracking down the Tarotiis discussions on the tarot forums. That Aeclectic thread was quite interesting in general.Then he adds a couple of sources which I think are new to us.
The word "like" does not appear here in front of "the Fool is in the game of tarot". But it can perhaps be understood.“E in quell’anno [1866] l’Italia ebbe inoculato il disonore: cioè la diffidenza e il disprezzo fremente di se stessa, il discredito e il disprezzo sogghignante delle altre nazioni. Sono acerbe parole quelle che io scrivo, lo so. Ma anche so che per un popolo che ha nome dall’Italia non è vita l’esser materialmente raccolto e su’ l rifarsi economicamente, e non avere né un’idea, né un valore politico, non rappresentare nulla, non contar nulla, essere in Europa quello che è il matto nel giuoco de’ tarocchi: peggio, essere un mendicante, non più fantastico né pittoresco, che di quando in quando sporge una nota diplomatica ai passanti sul mercato politico, e quelli ridono: essere un cameriere che chiede la mancia a quelli che si levano satolli dal famoso banchetto delle nazioni, e quasi sempre, con la scusa del mal garbo, la mancia gli è scontata in ischiaffi. ...
("And in that year [1866] Italy was inoculated with dishonor: that is, the mistrust and contempt of itself, discredit and contempt of other nations. These words that I write are dreary, I know. But I also know that for a people named by Italy it is not life to be physically harvested for making money economically, and to have neither an idea nor a political value, to represent nothing, to count for nothing, to be in Europe what the Fool is in the game of tarot: worse, being a beggar, no more fantastic or picturesque, than from time to time a diplomatic note goes to the passers-by on the political market, and they laugh; being a waiter asking for a tip from those who sat down to the famous banquet of nations, and almost always, with the apology of stomach-ache, the tip has taken him in the pits. ..."
The phrase "the most desired" is an explanatory comment that Andrea suggested. Of this dialogue Andrea says:Her. E a Napoli?
Che mi facevan quelle Gentildonne?
E quelle Principesse? E se e’ ve n’è,
Non se ne parli, Io ero tra loro (come
Si dice) il Matto ne’ Tarochi: e ’l sale
Delle vivande loro, e de’ banchetti.
(Hercules. And in Naples? What did those gentlewomen do to me? And those Princesses? If they are really noblewomen, it is better not to tell. I was among them (as it is said) the Fool in the Tarot [the most desired], like salt in food and during banquets.)
This case, like Carducci's does not use the word "come" (like, as), but it can be understood. Here the comparison to "the fool of the tarot",is quite the opposite of "of no value". Or is the writer speaking ironically? I don't think so, because the Fool really is of great value, one of the highest point-getters as well as being a card that can be played at any time, to avoid losing another valuable card, and returned to the one playing to it at the end of the game, It also can get points by filling in for other cards in combinations, in some versions of the game.In the sixth scene of Act Three, on the occasion of a dialogue between a bold-talking Hercules and his admirer Pecchia, the author puts in Hercules’ mouth an expression by which the bold talker wants to underline his own importance: “I was among them (as it is said) the Fool [Matto] of the Tarot”, which had become a typical idiom in the Renaissance, as the phrase “as it is said” put in parentheses suggests. From this phrase it is evident that at that time the Fool was the most important card, as was this Hercules for women, and as salt in banquets.
In that case, perhaps what the phrase means for Cecchi is not "the most desired" but "welcome everywhere", as salt is in eating, or banquets. are among meals.There is an old Italian saying, still current, "To be like the Fool in Tarocchi," (Tarot) which means to be welcome everywhere.
Here we finally do get "come" before "fool". But what does it mean here? On the one hand, he is a non-entity among the greats. On the other hand, if he is welcome here, he is welcome anywhere. In other words, just as the fool of the tarot, after the hand is played (is dead, so to speak), is welcome to fit among the kings and queens to complete the combination, so is Saint-Evremond, if he brings with him enough money. Perhaps there is something of both meanings in the comparison."La Cattedrale di Westminster, cioè la Badìa, s’ ha pure anch'essa la sua considerevole magnitudine, quando non si paragoni al nostro Duomo di Milano, che la vince a più doppj, vuoi in misura, vuoi in marmi, o vuoi in adornezza. La Badìa è d'architettura gotica, e bujamente maestosa, comechè d'uno stile diverso da quello del nostro Duomo. Chi ne fosse l' architetto non lo so. Gli è in esso che sono riposti i cadaveri di molti Re, di molti letterati, di molti guerrieri e di molti artefici singolari e famosi a' loro dì: La più parte degl' insigni poeti inglesi hanno quivi o l'ossa, o la statua, o il busto, o almeno una lapida. Fra di essi, come il matto ne' tarrochi, v' è Saint-Evremond (15), francese, di corta suppellettile (16) tanto in filosofia quanto in poesia. Un suo aulico inglese lo fece seppellire in essa, pagando non so quanti danari. E qui bisogna dirvi che l'onore di far sotterrare se stesso o altri in quella celebre Badìa si paga a contanti"
("Westminster Cathedral, which is to say the Abbey, has a considerable magnitude if not compared to our Cathedral in Milan, which wins double, whether you want it in measurement, or marble, or ornamentation. The Abbey is in Gothic style and majestically dark, in a different style than our Cathedral. I don’t know who the architect was. In it there are many cadavers of kings, writers, warriors, and singular artisans famous in their lifetime. The majority of the great English poets have their bones here. or a statue or bust, or at least a stone. Among them, like the fool [matto] of the tarot, is Saint-Evremond (14), a Frenchman, of few furnishings (15), as little in philosophy as in poetry. An English friend of his buried him in the church, paying much money. I have to say that the honour of being buried or burying someone else in that famous Abbey is to be paid for in cash.”)
Here the person being compared to the Fool in so far as he is of no worth. In this case, like that of Carducci, there is no "like" before "fool".O grand’ archimandrita degli allocchi
O supremo arcifanfano de’ cucchi,
O burbucione, o matto da' Tarocchi
E non t’accorgi omai, che tu ci hai secchi?
Vattene ad abitar tra’mammalucchi,
O farai meglio a conversar co i becchi.
(Oh great chief of fools, / oh supreme archcoxcombe of cuckoos / oh boaster, oh fool of the Tarot, / you don’t realize that now you have really bored us? / If you do not go to live among stupid people, / you’d better chat with cuckolds.)
Mike -mikeh wrote: ↑13 Dec 2017, 22:23On my computer Ross's article, which he posted at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1216&sid=caff7d800 ... =20#p19828 is now removed "due to copy enfringement". Does that mean that any article published in The Playing Card is condemned to the relative oblivion of those few people who happen to subscribe to that journal, unless they know what they are looking for and remember to use the search engine "Ask Alexander"? I hope not!
Anyway, the article is at
https://askalexander.org/display/22536/ ... oriography
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