Re: Fame riddle

#81
mikeh wrote:Good suggestion, looking for "fama" in the poem. Here they are (Hollander translation; "Gloria" is translated as "glory"; the Italian is at http://www.classicitaliani.it/boccaccio ... isione.htm):

Canto 6, line 13 (referring to Dante):
Your fame shall endure, well recognized, glory of the Florentines, to those ingrates your life had little enough repute [conosciuta]!
Canto 12, line 5 (I start at line 1):
I went on looking at that valorous people/ not without great admiration,/ bringing forth new thoughts within me about them./ It seemed to me, so I believe, that truly / great fame should make them /sempiternally glorious.
Canto 26, line 19 (to a conquering hero who took a slave girl as his spoil):
"Do you not understand/ what is obvious to everyone, / since your repute [fama] now bears the news which counters the glory of your earlier deeds?"
Canto 30, line 23:
It is true that some, more valorous than others,/ merited fame, yet even if the world endure, their glorious names shall die. / For fame [questa, in original] is like the grass / which Aries pushes forth for you; then, / later, Libra arrives and turns it dry and brown.
Canto 34, line 56:
I speak of Priam, of whose supreme worth, great riches, fame, exalted honor, and of the boldness of his many sons, one could never give fit account; ...
Only one, canto 26, is in a negative context. It seems to me that "fama" as the "gloria del popol mondano" by itself in Amarosa Visione is neutral between negative and positive. Here is a dictionary definition of the word in modern English, which seems to fit Boccaccio well enough: "fame: the condition of being known or talked about by many people, especially on account of notable achievements." Here "notable" means "worthy of attention" according to the same dictionary.

Added later: Actually, the modern definition is more positive than negative; hence the translator in the negative instance above says "repute" for "fama" rather than "fame". In that way it differs from Boccaccio's usage, which seems to be more neutral. However even Boccaccio doesn't use "fama" for the Florentines' view of Dante in his time; so the difference is rather small.
Thanks.
Canto 6, line 13 (referring to Dante):
Your fame shall endure, well recognized, glory of the Florentines, to those ingrates your life had little enough repute [conosciuta]!
If I understand this correctly, he says something positive about Dante, and something negative about the Florentines, at least those Florentines, who still persecuted Dante and his work.
Boccaccio in his late life had problems. The Amorosa Visione had been later changed against the version of 1342/43.

English / German wiki
A number of Boccaccio's close friends and other acquaintances were executed or exiled in the purge following the failed coup of 1361. It was in this year that Boccaccio left Florence to reside in Certaldo, although not directly linked to the conspiracy, where he became less involved in government affairs. He did not undertake further missions for Florence until 1365, and traveled to Naples and then on to Padua and Venice, where he met up with Petrarch in grand style at Palazzo Molina, Petrarch's residence as well as the place of Petrarch's library.

...

He returned to work for the Florentine government in 1365, undertaking a mission to Pope Urban V.

...

1373 wurde ihm, der bereits zwanzig Jahre zuvor mit seiner Dante-Biographie den Kult um Dante Alighieri angefacht hatte, von der Stadt Florenz aufgetragen, öffentlich die Divina Commedia zu lesen, zu erklären und zu kommentieren.
1373: Boccaccio, who 20 years ago had written a biography of Dante, got the commission of the city of Florence to read and comment publicly the Divine Comedy.

English wiki has: Amorosa Visione revised 1365
Italian wiki has: Amorosa Visione changed 1356-60

Generally there was contact between Petrarca and Boccaccio and Petrarca since 1350. If Petrarca did develop a positive view of Fama during his work on the Trionfi, it was surely of some influence on Boccaccio.
Canto 34, line 56:
I speak of Priam, of whose supreme worth, great riches, fame, exalted honor, and of the boldness of his many sons, one could never give fit account; ...
Priamus has fame, but bad sons and Troja is destroyed.

*************

The Petrarca Trionfi poem has more Fama passages. They appear not only in the 3 chapters of Fama, actually only Amore I and Morte are without "FAMA".
It wasn't easy in all cases to find the precise translation passages (no line numbers in the used text), so I occasionally expanded the part of the English translation, partly to get a better possibility to understand the passages. I used ...
http://petrarch.petersadlon.com/read_tr ... ge=I-I.txt

Generally one has to see, that 7 of 12 chapters belong to Amore (4) and Fama (3). Chastity, Time and Eternity have only one, Morte has 2. Petrarca - so one could think, has a clear preference for Love and Fame.

Amore II, 19
- L'esser mio - gli risposi - non sostene
tanto conoscitor, ché così lunge
di poca fiamma gran luce non vene;
ma tua fama real per tutto aggiunge,
e tal che mai non ti vedrà né vide,
con bel nodo d'amor teco congiunge.

"I am not worthy to be known," I said,
"By such a knower: this slight flame of mine
Hath not the power to cast its light so far.
Thy royal fame extends throughout the world,
And binds to thee with the fair bond of love
Folk who have never seen thee, nor shall see.

Amore III, 40
Poi vedi come Amor crudele e pravo
vince Davit e sforzalo a far l'opra
onde poi pianga in loco oscuro e cavo.
Simile nebbia par ch'oscuri e copra
del più saggio figliuol la chiara fama
e 'l parta in tutto dal Signor di sopra.

See then how love in evil cruelty
Overcame David, leading him to a sin
He was to weep for in a dark retreat.
See how the cloud of love likewise obscures
The clear fame of the wisest of his sons,
Leading him far astray from the Lord above.
Amore IV, 10
Mentre io volgeva gli occhi in ogni parte
s' i' ne vedessi alcun di chiara fama
o per antiche o per moderne carte,
vidi colui che sola Euridice ama,
lei segue a l'inferno e, per lei morto,
con la lingua già fredda anco la chiama.

While I was looking here and there to see
If any of them had risen to renown
For pages they had writ, or old or new,
I beheld him who loved Eurydice:
E' en to the world below he followed her,
And calls her still, with a tongue now cold in death.
Pudicia I. 148
Con queste e con certe altre anime chiare
triunfar vidi di colui che pria
veduto avea del mondo triunfare.
Fra l'altre la vestal vergine pia
che baldanzosamente corse al Tibro,
e per purgarsi d'ogni fama ria
portò del fiume al tempio acqua col cribro;
poi vidi Ersilia con le sue Sabine,
schiera che del suo nome empie ogni libro;
poi vidi, fra le donne pellegrine,
quella che per lo suo diletto e fido
sposo, non per Enea, volse ire al fine
(taccia 'l vulgo ignorante); io dico Dido,
cui studio d'onestate a morte spinse,
non vano amor com'è 'l publico grido.

With these and other souls illustrious
I saw my lady triumph over him
I had seen triumph over all the world.
Among the others was the vestal maid
who that she might be free of ill report
Sped boldly to the Tiber, and from thence
Brought water to her temple in a sieve.
Then came the Sabines and Hersilia,
A troop whose honored fame fills many a tome.
And there I saw, 'mid those of other lands,
Her who for a belov'd and faithful spouse
(Not for Aeneas) willed to meet her end.
Let ignorance be still! I speak of her,
Dido, whom honor led to death, and not
An empty love, as is the public cry.
Morte II, 88
Poi disse sospirando: - Mai diviso
da te non fu 'l mio cor, né già mai fia;
ma temprai la tua fiamma col mio viso,
perché a salvar te e me null'altra via
era e la nostra giovenetta fama;
né per ferza è però madre men pia.

[expanded]
Scarce had I said these words when I beheld
The flashing of that smile so sweet to me,
That once had been a sun to cheer my spirit.
Sighing, she answered: "Never was my heart
From thee divided, nor shall ever be.
Thy flame I tempered with my countenance
Because there was no other way than this
To save us both, and save your youthful fame:
A mother loves, even with lash in hand.
How often to myself I said: 'He loves,
Nay more, he burns, and is in need of help,
Scarce to be had from one who hopes and fears:
Let him behold my face, and not my heart.'
Fama I, 103
Poi venia que' che livido maligno
tumor di sangue, bene oprando, oppresse,
nobil Volumnio e d'alta laude digno;
Cosso e Filon, Rutilio, e da le spesse
luci in disparte tre soli ir vedeva,
rotti i membri e smagliate l'arme e fesse:
Lucio Dentato e Marco Sergio e Sceva,
que' tre folgori e tre scogli di guerra,
ma l'un rio successor di fama leva;
Mario poi, che Jugurta e' Cimbri atterra
e 'l tedesco furore, e Fulvio Flacco,
ch'a l'ingrati troncar a bel studio erra,
et il più nobil Fulvio, e solo un Gracco
di quel gran nido garrulo inquïeto
che fe' il popol roman più volte stracco,
e quel che parve altrui beato e lieto,
non dico fu, ché non chiaro si vede
un chiuso cor profondo in suo secreto:
Metello dico, e suo padre, e suo' rede,
che già di Macedonia e de' Numidi
e di Creta e di Spagna addusser prede.

He in command was cruel and severe;
But he who followed was of kindly heart,
Worthy as captain and as man-at-arms.
Noble Volumnius, meriting high praise,
Came then, who by his conduct had removed
A bleeding tumor, livid, and malign;
Cossus and philo and Rutilius;
Then, at one side, three by themselves I saw,
Their bodies wounded, and their armor cleft,
Three thunderbolts and mighty cliffs of war,
Dentatus, Scaeva, Marcus Sergius,
Who through a younger kinsman lost his fame.
Marius then, who crushed the German rage,
Jugurtha, and the Cimbri; Fulvius,
Who against orders put ingrates to death;
The nobler Fulvius; of the Gracchi one
From all that garrulous and restless brood
That tried the patience of the men of Rome;
Metellus, who to all seemed glad and blest?
I do not say he was, for one sees not
Into a heart shut close in secrecy;
His father and his heirs were there as well:
From Macedon and from Numidia
They brought their booty, and from Crete and Spain.
Fama II, 1
Pien d'infinita e nobil meraviglia
presa a mirar il buon popol di Marte,
ch'al mondo non fu mai simil famiglia,
giungea la vista con l'antiche carte
ove son gli alti nomi e' sommi pregi,
e sentiv' al mio dir mancar gran parte;
ma disviarmi i pellegrini egregi,
Anibal primo, e quel cantato in versi
Achille, che di fama ebbe gran fregi,
i duo chiari Troiani e' duo gran Persi,
Filippo e 'l figlio, che da Pella agl'lndi
correndo vinse paesi diversi.

Filled with amazement endless and profound
At the sight of these heroic men of Rome?
Ne'er in the world was such another host?
I turned to records of the olden age
Wherein great names and virtues are inscribed,
And found that much was lacking to my tale.
Yet now my thoughts to foreign heroes turned:
To Hannibal, and then to Achilles, sung
In verse that gave to him immense renown;
Two famous Trojans; two great Persian kings;
Then Philip, and his son, whose swift campaigns
Won victories from Greece to India;
Fama II, 90
I' vidi alquante donne ad una lista:
Antiope ed Oritia armata e bella,
Ippolita del figlio afflitta e trista,
e Menalippe, e ciascuna sì snella
che vincerle fu gloria al grande Alcide:
e' l'una ebbe, e Teseo l'altra sorella;
la vedova che sì secura vide
morto 'l figliolo, e tal vendetta feo
ch'uccise Ciro et or sua fama uccide,
però che, udendo ancora il suo fin reo,
par che di novo a sua gran colpa moia,
tanto quel dì del suo nome perdeo.

[expanded]
A troop of warrior women now I saw:
Antiope and Orithia, armed and fair;
Hippolyta, mourning for her lifeless son,
And Menalippe, each of them so swift
That Hercules could hardly vanquish them?
And one he kept, the other gave to Theseus;
The widow who, unweeping, saw her son
In death, and then for him such vengeance took
That she slew Cyrus, and now slays his fame:
For even now, hearing his dreadful end,
He seems again to be dying in his guilt,
So much of honor did he lose that day!
Then I saw her who in an evil hour
Saw Troy; and with them too the Latin maid
Who fought the Trojan band in Italy.

Fama II, 142
Gite superbi, o miseri Cristiani,
consumando l'un l'altro, e non vi caglia
che 'l sepolcro di Cristo è in man de' cani!
Raro o nessun che 'n alta fama saglia
vidi dopo costui, s'io non m'inganno,
o per arte di pace o di battaglia.

Live on, ye wretched Christians, in your pride,
Consuming one the other, caring not
That the tomb of Christ be in the clutch of dogs!
Few men, if any, saw I after him
Rise to high fame, if I be not deceived,
Either through arts of peace or arts of war.
Fama III, 106
Contra 'l buon Siro, che l'umana speme
alzò ponendo l'anima immortale,
s'armò Epicuro, onde sua fama geme,
ardito a dir ch'ella non fusse tale;
così al lume fu fumoso e lippo
co la brigata al suo maestro eguale:
di Metrodoro parlo e d'Aristippo.

'Gainst him of Syros, who raised human hopes,
Claiming the immortality of the soul,
Came Epicurus (whence his fame is less)
Who dared to argue that it was not true?
So infamous and blinded was his light!?
And those who followed him, as Metrodorus
And Aristippus, held to their master's thought.

Tempo I, 1 (start))
De l'aureo albergo co l'aurora inanzi
sì ratto usciva 'l sol cinto di raggi,
che detto avresti: - e' si corcò pur dianzi. -
Alzato un poco, come fanno i saggi
guardoss'intorno, et a se stesso disse:
- Che pensi? omai convien che più cura aggi.
Ecco, s'un che famoso in terra visse,
de la sua fama per morir non esce,
che sarà de la legge che 'l Ciel fisse?
E se fama mortal morendo cresce,
che spegner si devea in breve, veggio
nostra eccellenzia al fine; onde m'incresce.
Che più s'aspetta? o che puote esser peggio?
che più nel ciel ho io che 'n terra un uomo,
a cui esser egual per grazia cheggio?
Quattro cavai con quanto studio como,
pasco nell'oceano e sprono e sferzo,
e pur la fama d'un mortal non domo!
Ingiuria da corruccio e non da scherzo,
avenir questo a me, s' i' fossi in cielo
non dirò primo, ma secondo, o terzo!

[expanded]
FORTH FROM his golden palace, after the dawn,
So swiftly rose the Sun, begirt with rays,
Thou wouldst have said: "Yet hardly had it set."
Risen a little, he looked round about
As wise men do, and to himself he said:
"What thinkest thou? Thou shouldst take greater care.
For if a man who had been famed in life
Continues in his fame in spite of death,
What will become of the law that heaven made?
If mortal fame, that soon should fade away,
Increases after death, then I foresee
Our excellence at an end, wherefor I grieve.
What more is to befall? What could be worse?
What more have I in the heavens than man on earth?
Must I then plead for equality with him?
My four good steeds I curry faithfully,
And feed them in the seas, and spur, and lash,
And yet I yield to the fame of mortal man.

An injury for anger, not for jest,
That this should be my lot, e'en though I were
But second or third in the heavens, rather than first!
Now must I kindle all the zeal I have
And in my wrath double my winged speed:
For I am envious, I confess, of men.
For some I see who after a thousand years,
And other thousands, grow more famous still,
While I continue my perpetual task.
I am as erst I was, ere the earth itself
Was stablished, wheeling ever, day and night,
In my round course, that never comes to an end."
Tempo I, 104
Quanti fur chiari tra Peneo ed Ebro
che son venuti e verran tosto meno!
quanti sul Xanto e quanti in val di Tebro!
Un dubbio, iberno, instabile sereno,
è vostra fama, e poca nebbia il rompe;
e 'l gran tempo a' gran nomi è gran veneno.

[expanded, the English translator works here rather free]
From queenly Fame, of whom I have said my say.
And then I heard a voice, and, listening, wrote:
"What dark abyss of blind oblivion
Awaits these slight and tender human flowers!
For years, for lustra, and for centuries
The Sun, victorious o'er the human mind,
Will still revolve, and Fame will fade away.
How many, famous once, are famed no more
Where rivers flow in Thrace and Thessaly,
Or by the Xanthus, or in Tiber's vale!
Your fame is nothing more than a sunlit day,
Or a doubtful winter: clouds may end it all.
Great length of time is poisonous to great names.
Your grandeur passes, and your pageantry,
Your lordships pass, your kingdoms pass; and Time
Disposes wilfully of mortal things,
Tempo I, 139
Quanti son già felici morti in fasce!
Quanti miseri in ultima vecchiezza!
Alcun dice: - Beato chi non nasce. -
Ma per la turba a' grandi errori avezza
dopo la lunga età sia 'l nome chiaro:
che è questo però che sì s'apprezza?
Tutto vince e ritoglie il Tempo avaro;
chiamasi Fama, et è morir secondo;
né più che contra 'l primo è alcun riparo.
Così 'l Tempo triunfa i nomi e 'l mondo. (finish of Tempo)

[expanded]
And I saw Time such booty bear away
That our renowns appeared as nought to me?
Although the common folk believe not so:
Blind folk, that ever dally with the wind,
Feeding on false opinions, thinking it
Better to die when old than in the cradle.
Happy are they who die in swaddling clothes,
And wretched they who die in utmost age.
"Blessed is he who is not born," 'tis said.
And even though the errant crowd may hold
That for long ages Fame may still endure,
What is it that so highly is esteemed?
Time in his avarice steals so much away:
Men call it Fame; 'tis but a second death,
And both alike are strong beyond defense.
Thus doth Time triumph over the world and Fame.
Eternity I, 121
Questi trionfi, i cinque in terra giuso
avem veduto, et a la fine il sesto,
Dio permettente, vederem lassuso;
e 'l Tempo, a disfar tutto così presto,
e Morte in sua ragion cotanto avara,
morti inseme seranno e quella e questo.
E quei che Fama meritaron chiara,
che 'l Tempo spense, e i be' visi leggiadri
che 'mpallidir fe' 'l Tempo e Morte amara,
l'obblivïon, gli aspetti oscuri et adri,
più che mai bei tornando, lasceranno
a Morte impetuosa, a' giorni ladri;
ne l'età più fiorita e verde avranno
con immortal bellezza eterna fama.
Ma inanzi a tutte ch'a rifar si vanno,
è quella che piangendo il mondo chiama
co la mia lingua e co la stanca penna;
ma 'l ciel pur di vederla intera brama.
A riva un fiume che nasce in Gebenna
Amor mi diè per lei sì lunga guerra
che la memoria ancora il cor accenna.
Felice sasso che 'l bel viso serra!
ché, poi ch'avrà ripreso il suo bel velo,
se fu beato chi la vide in terra,
or che fia dunque a rivederla in cielo? (finish of Eternity)

(expanded)
Then shall we see how slight the greatness is
That we are proud of, and that gold and land
Have brought to us not benefit, but harm,
And, at the right, those who, beneath the check
Of modest fortune, have been well content
To live without display, in homely peace.
Five of these Triumphs on the earth below
We have beheld, and at the end, the sixth,
God willing, we shall see in heaven above.
Time, ever ready to destroy all things,
And Death, so greedy in her evil power,
One and the other, shall together die.
And those who merited illustrious fame
That Time had quenched, and countenances fair
Made pale and wan by Time and bitter Death,
Becoming still more beauteous than before
Will leave to raging Death and thieving Time
Oblivion, and aspects dark and sad.
In the full flower of youth they shall possess
Immortal beauty and eternal fame.
Before them all, who go to be made new,
Is she for whom the world is weeping still,
Calling her with my tongue and weary pen,
But heaven too desires her, body and soul.
Beside a stream that rises in the Alps
Love gave to me for her a war so long
My heart still bears the memory thereof.
Happy the stone that covers her fair face!
And now that she her beauty hath resumed,
If he was blest who saw her here on earth,
What then will it be to see her again in heaven!
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#82
Fame/reputation hatched by virtue alone makes one immortal:

Il canzoniere: Alessandro Sforza

Number 127:

Il dolce tempo e car di nostra vita
Falace e breve, o miseri mortali,
Carchi d'error, pensier dannosi e frali,
Non vi accorgete ogni hor che al fin ve invita?

Speranza incerta e morte stabilita
La vita porta con pungenti strali,
Né far si possono seco altri immortali
Se non per fama sol di virtù ordita.

Hor vi rimembri che la vita mancha,
El tempo fuge al vil corporeo stato,
Né val regnio o thesor, forza o possanza.

Dhe! fate almen che l'alma lassa e stancha
Per fama acquisti el fin tanto beato,
Che al mondo exemplo sia del ciel speranza!
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Fame riddle

#83
Google translates it quite well into English, but you have to play with it a bit, ie, correct any archaic spelling or words that google does not recognize *

Corsican has much more in common with archaic Italian than modern Italian - so the translation from Corsican as well as Italian can give you a better sense of meaning -

SteveM

* For example try:
Car - caro
Carchi - carico (in Italian, but is correct as "carchi" in Corsican)
Falace - fallacie
Hor - Ora
Sol - solo (I presume, but try "sole" as well if you wish)
Val - valè (corsican), valore (italian)
Regnio - regni
Thesor - tresoru (in Corsican, or "ricchezza" in Italian)
Almen - almeno
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Fame riddle

#84
mikeh wrote: The word "VIELART" is interesting because it has some similarity both to "Vievil" and "viel art," old art. The "old art" could be tarot card-making. So perhaps Vievil or card-making thinks he or it should have fame and not ignominy, for its love of beauty and truth.
There are at least three double entendres in Vielart - old man, old art, and old lard - all three are used in the comedy play "'The Pilgrimage of Marriage", here are both old man & old art used together in same dialogue (spoken by the young pilgrim to the old pilgrim viel pelerin, which I agree is the most relevant pun, if such was intended:

Image
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Fame riddle

#85
mikeh wrote:I
But as I see it, the whole phrase "QVV SOIT CRYE" means "who would let it be cried" and not either "who would shout" (Kaplan) or "let it be cried" (Ross). I would give a similar treatment of the unambiguous "QVY" that occurs later on: "who would let him be hanged" and not Ross's "let him be hanged (Kaplan is hopeless here). I am no expert on 16th-17th century French, so I would appreciate input from those who know it better (of whom several have contributed to this thread already). Whatever the correct translation, I think the "QUY" has to be included.

CRYE A SON DE TROMPE = crier à son de trompe, shouting or crying aloud to the sound of trumpets, which means to publish, make public or announce something by the authority of the magistrates with trumpets:

Image


Saint-Père, fais-moi justice de ce vieillard, mat et bagat amoureux de cette dame qui soit crier à son de trompe à tout le monde, par le pape, la popesse, l'empereur, l'impératrice, le soleil, la lune, les étoiles, la foudre, pris a force, qui soit pendu et traîné au diable.

Holy Father, render me justice for this old man, fool and juggler in love with this lady who will shout to the sound of the trumpet to all the world, by the pope, the popess, the emperor, the empress, the sun, the moon , the stars, the lightning, taken by force, who is to be hung and dragged to the devil.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Fame riddle

#86
SteveM wrote:
mikeh wrote:I
But as I see it, the whole phrase "QVV SOIT CRYE" means "who would let it be cried" and not either "who would shout" (Kaplan) or "let it be cried" (Ross). I would give a similar treatment of the unambiguous "QVY" that occurs later on: "who would let him be hanged" and not Ross's "let him be hanged (Kaplan is hopeless here). I am no expert on 16th-17th century French, so I would appreciate input from those who know it better (of whom several have contributed to this thread already). Whatever the correct translation, I think the "QUY" has to be included.

CRYE A SON DE TROMPE = crier à son de trompe, shouting or crying aloud to the sound of trumpets, which means to publish, make public or announce something by the authority of the magistrates with trumpets:

Image


Saint-Père, fais-moi justice de ce vieillard, mat et bagat amoureux de cette dame qui soit crier à son de trompe à tout le monde, par le pape, la popesse, l'empereur, l'impératrice, le soleil, la lune, les étoiles, la foudre, pris a force, qui soit pendu et traîné au diable.

Holy Father, render me justice for this old man, fool and juggler in love with this lady who will cry out to the sound of the trumpet to all the world, by the pope, the popess, the emperor, the empress, the sun, the moon , the stars, the lightning, taken by force, who is to be hung and dragged to the devil.
Steve
What is originally the text in French?
Saint-Père, fais-moi justice de ce vieillard, mat et bagat amoureux de cette dame qui soit crier à son de trompe à tout le monde, par le pape, la popesse, l'empereur, l'impératrice, le soleil, la lune, les étoiles, la foudre, pris a force, qui soit pendu et traîné au diable.
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Fame riddle

#87
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: What is originally the text in French?
Saint-Père, fais-moi justice de ce vieillard, mat et bagat amoureux de cette dame qui soit crier à son de trompe à tout le monde, par le pape, la popesse, l'empereur, l'impératrice, le soleil, la lune, les étoiles, la foudre, pris a force, qui soit pendu et traîné au diable.
Who is this Dame who is proclaiming to everyone who is to be seized by force, hung and dragged to the devil? And why does the crazy old man and juggler, so (unjustly?) treated, love her (who it seems will bring about his downfall) !? If, as some think, the Dame is temperance, why should a lover of virtue be seized, hanged and carted off to the devil?

*The old man (vielart = Vieville, the master of the old art viel art of cardmaking?)

Vieville tarot:

PERE SAINCT FAIT
MOY YVSTICE DE CE
VIELART MA E BAGA
AMOVREVX DE
CESTE DAME QVY
SOIT CRYE A SON DE
TROMPE PAR TOVT
LE MONDE DE PAR
LE PAPE LA PAPESSE
LANPEREVR LINPERATR
YCE LE SOLEIL

LA LVNE LES ETOILLES
LA FOUDRE PRINS
A FORCE QUY SOIT
PENDV E TRANNAY
AV DYABLE.

PRINS = Pris
TRANNAY - Trahyne/Trayne/Traine - dragged, also a cart or dray without wheels, that is dragged, like a sled --

L'As de Denier
YVSTICE
VIELART [L'ERMITE)
MA[T] [FOU]
BAGA[T] [BATELEUR]
AMOVREVX
DAME [FORTUNE, ou Temperance?]
TROMPE [JUDGEMENT]
LE MONDE
LE PAPE
LA PAPESSE
LANPEREVR
LINPERATRYCE
LE SOLEIL

Deux de Coupes
LA LVNE
LES ETOILLES
LA FOVDRE
FORCE
TRANNAY [CHARIOT]
PENDV
DYABLE

NOMMÉ SUR LA CARTE
SOL FAMA [FAMA - TEMPERANCE]

NON NOMMÉ
LA MORT
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Fame riddle

#88
Steve

It's late and I l have to check Vieville.
But at first look, it seems ro me that the Dame is winged Roman Fortuna crying out to the sound of the trumpett ...

"crier à son de trompe" = " au son de la trompette de la Renommée": I see reference to the trompettes of Renommée as Ancient Roman female deity winged FAMA blowing through a trumpett
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trompette ... omm%C3%A9e
The expression« trompettes de la renommée » is a référence to Fama or Renommée , "déesse antique personnifiant la Renommée et représentée avec une trompette." She was represented blowung through one trompette
Image

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fama

Added later on ...
This is in adequation with Mikeh's post :
"The world has the primate, then the golden winged angel;
Then Phoebus, the moon and the stars, the devil with the lightening;
Fame precedes death, the cross the old man, fortune the chariot;
Love gives up to the strong and justice, the priest precedes the king,
The queen precedes the high priest’s wife (4), the innkeeper offers drinks
To all these ones, at last the fool is recognizable by his behaviour."

The theme interest me in the moment just for a specific detail: the allegory Fama (unusual for nomal Tarot) gets Nr. 14 in the Tarot numerology in the poem.

Fama riddle : my contribution
The "Dame" is FAMA.
Her attribut was also the WHEELL as Fortuna and she could be represented with wings and standing as number 14 Tarot Temperance...
"Les représentations, innombrables, de la Fortune ont comme attributs principaux la roue, la sphère, le gouvernail, la proue de navire, la corne d'abondance. La déesse est tantôt assise, tantôt debout ; elle porte parfois des ailes."
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortuna_(mythologie)
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Fame riddle

#89
So the trumpet is a reference not only to the angel of judgement but to the trumpet of Fama? Could be, but it feels a little overloaded to me, but possibly --- (the connection with Judgment is also there in that she is proclaiming a judgment: for the old man, fool and juggler in love with her to be hanged and carted off to the devil) -- Fama is a type of judgment too I suppose, upon a persons good or bad name/reputation, by which they may be divided into sheep or goats ----

So the Dame is Temperance/Fama and Fortune is not named (or are you saying she is all three? The Angel of Judgment, Fama / Temperance & Fortune? You seem to connect Fama with both temperance and the wheel?)

That she proclaims to the sound of the trumpet (and the trumpet being an attribute of Fama, though not shown on the actual card), together with the fact that the Fama/Temperance does show a lady (whereas the wheel of fortune generally on cards does not), does strengthen the case for Dame = Temperance / Fama --
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Fame riddle

#90
Alciato c 1540 ... see the begin of this thread ... made this poem ...
Mundus habet primas, croceas dein Angelus alis:
Tum Phoebus, luna, & stellæ, cum fulmine dæmon:
Fama necem, Crux ante senem, fortuna quadrigas:
Cedit amor forti & justo: regemque sacerdos,
Flaminicam regina præit que is campo propinat
Omnibus: extremo stultus discernitur actu.

Mundus (21) habet primas, croceas dein Angelus (20) alis:
Tum Phoebus (19), luna (18), & stellæ (17), cum fulmine (16) dæmon (15):
Fama(14) necem (13), Crux(12) ante senem (11), fortuna(10) quadrigas (9 chariot):
Cedit amor (8 love) forti (7 strenth) & justo (6 justice): regemque sacerdos,
Flaminicam regina præit que is campo propinat
Omnibus: extremo stultus discernitur actu.
Somehow Fama got a 14 then. Then "Fama Sol" was detected at Vievil and other Belgian Tarocchi. Nobody talked about Fortuna, as far I remember.
There are some arguments, that Vievil came from Belgium originally.

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Further:

We persecuted "winged Temperances" as Angels.

We analyzed the Triperuno of Teofilo Folengo and found that a 14 was connected to a burial after 13 was connected to the death of a weasle.

The idea ..
1-5
6 Love
7 Chastity
8-12
13 Death
14 Fama
...
"star-Moon-Sun and final judgment as end of time" as Time
21 Eternity
.. as a Petrarca Trionfi interpretation.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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