The Chariot
Posted: 12 Nov 2009, 22:02
A thread to discuss the iconography of The Chariot
Over 500 years of history in 78 cards
https://forum.tarothistory.com/
I think the Catania, Charles VI and Rosenwald charioteer's headwear show - or share - the influence of depcitions of Alfonso's Triumph (1443) and Borso d'Este's (1453) -And then there is the Chariot. The CY has one woman on top and one groom (below left). The Ursino has two grooms, but with a front view. The "Ferrara single card" has five women on top and a groom on each horse (http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/ferrasingle/). The PMB has no groom, and explicitly refers to the Phaedrus, as translated in the 1420's, because of the horses' wings. Plato doesn't have grooms, just horses and charioteer.
The Charles VI (below center) also has no groom, as in the PMB, but changes the person to a man, as in Plato. So is the order of the change in imagery, by these considerations only: CY, Ursino, Ferrara single card/PMB, Charles VI?
And then isn't the "Rothschild" (above right) a further development yet, with its fleur-de-lys and wings on the helmet? Notice also that on the Charles VI there are seven balls and no fleur-de-lys--suggesting to me that the Charles VI is pre-1465 (by your account of the balls) and the Rothschild post-1465. Are the plumes on the horses' heads a trans-alpine innovation? (Yes, I am questioning Ross's position that this image is "conservative.") On the other hand, the "Mantegna" Mars is simpler than the Charles VI, and like the PMB has a person sitting down, both considerations suggesting that it's place is between the PMB and the Charles VI.
Right - I don't think there is a relation in the Bolognese Chariot to this story. My belief is that he is an archetypal Roman triumphator.lamort wrote:Hi Ross,
You do not believe that there is a relationship between the wings of the helmet and the Plato's winged chariot mith? in turn, and returning to the anonymous image of paris, geese or swans that are pulling the cart could not make connection to the myth?
Huck wrote:hi, Ross
... I still don't understand your thesis and also not your arguments.
At the Alfonso cassone picture (the total picture) is a Julius Caesar, as he is described for the real Trionfo of Alfonso 1443, standing on a globe (on the picture and in the description). His figure has no helmet, no wings. Do we see the same?
The value of Caesar's appearance in Alfonso's (and Borso's) triumph for me is what he says (Caesar addressing the prince) -Huck wrote:hi, Ross
... I still don't understand your thesis and also not your arguments.
At the Alfonso cassone picture (the total picture) is a Julius Caesar, as he is described for the real Trionfo of Alfonso 1443, standing on a globe (on the picture and in the description). His figure has no helmet, no wings. Do we see the same?
... damn, this dragon with wings and man's face looks like a bat.The heraldic use of the bat in Valencia, Catalonia and the Balearic Islands has its origins in a winged dragon (vibra or vibria) that was crowning the helmet or cimera reial of the Kings of Aragon. Although traditionally the dragon helmet is ascribed to king James I of Aragon (1208 – 1276),[1] reliable documents state that the winged dragon cimera reial didn't appear over the helmet until Peter IV of Aragon's reign (1319 – 1387).
There is also a legend that says that thanks to the humble intervention of a bat, king James I of Aragon was able to win a crucial battle against the Saracens that allowed him to win Valencia for his kingdom. However, original documents state that the animal was a swallow and not a bat.
http://www.theoi.com/Text/VirgilEclogues.htmlBut sadly Gallus replied: “Yet you, Arcadians, will sing this tail to your mountains; Arcadians only know how to sing. How softly then would my bones repose, if in other days your pipes should tell my love! And oh that I had been one of you, the shepherd of a flock of yours, or the dresser of your ripened grapes! Surely, my darling, whether it were Phyllis or Amyntas, or whoever it were – and what if Amyntas be dark? violets, too, are black and black are hyacinths – my darling would be lying at my side among the willows, and under the creeping vine above – Phyllis plucking me flowers for a garland, Amyntas singing me songs. Here are cold springs, Lycoris, here soft meadows, here woodland; here with you, only the passage of time would wear me away. But now a mad passion for the stern god of war keeps me in arms, amid clashing steel and fronting foes; while you, far from your native soil – O that I could but disbelieve such a tale! – gaze, heartless one, on Alpine snows and the frozen Rhine, apart from me, all alone. Ah, may the frosts not harm you! Ah, may the jagged ice not cut your tender feet!
I never suggested that this was a winged helmet.Huck wrote:I wouldn't see it as a helmet, if you wouldn't have told me ... also I wouldn't see a winged helmet.