Re: Fame riddle

#91
Huck wrote,
The idea ..
1-5
6 Love
7 Chastity
8-12
13 Death
14 Fama
...
"star-Moon-Sun and final judgment as end of time" as Time
21 Eternity
.. as a Petrarca Trionfi interpretation.
Yes, it suggests that people did think of the tarot in terms of Petrarch's poem, even one or two hundred years after the invention of the tarot sequence, and thought that Fame should be there, somewhere after 13 and before 17 or 18. So why not give it to the lady with wings? Even if it is rather ill-fitting, given that she is Temperance. But some cad had to have it.

Other possibilities, in the right place in the sequence: the Star of Bethlehem, in minchiate and Bolognese tarocchi, perhaps chosen because it was the star of glory, fama (this was Shephard's idea).

Also, the Tower could have been given the characteristic falling figures of the Tarot de Marseille to suggest the Tower of Babel, with Nimrod and company being thrown off, as the Golden Legend, Lydgate, and I assume Boccaccio had it: the pursuit of earthly fame to the neglect of God's will. (My suggestion.)

However these are only images, and equally a hundred years and more after the invention. Alciati, etc. have the advantage of the word itself.

In that way it is like the missing virtue of Prudence, which shows up in the Lollio/Imperiali poem as a term for the card with the man hanging by his foot. Which these same "Belgian" tarots might have had in mind, in turning him right-side up (even though, unlike de Gebelin, keeping the traditional name).

Re: Fame riddle

#92
SteveM wrote:So the trumpet is a reference not only to the angel of judgement but to the trumpet of Fama? Could be, but it feels a little overloaded to me, but possibly --- (the connection with Judgment is also there in that she is proclaiming a judgment: for the old man, fool and juggler in love with her to be hanged and carted off to the devil) -- Fama is a type of judgment too I suppose, upon a persons good or bad name/reputation, by which they may be divided into sheep or goats ----

So the Dame is Temperance/Fama and Fortune is not named (or are you saying she is all three? The Angel of Judgment, Fama / Temperance & Fortune? You seem to connect Fama with both temperance and the wheel?)

That she proclaims to the sound of the trumpet (and the trumpet being an attribute of Fama, though not shown on the actual card), together with the fact that the Fama/Temperance does show a lady (whereas the wheel of fortune generally on cards does not), does strengthen the case for Dame = Temperance / Fama --


"So the Dame is Temperance/Fama and Fortune is not named (or are you saying she is all three? The Angel of Judgment, Fama / Temperance & Fortune? "
Yes.
"Dame" is female = Lady = Temperance.
As this Temperance= Sol Fama numbered 14 : "Fame hatched by virtue alone is immortal" (Fama on Facebook Tarot History offred by Koy Deli : smile)
Image


Coming back to the text's Lady with wings and trumpet : Fama
If only Trumpet of Judgment, it would have been male Angel Gabriel of Last Judgment. It is not the case.


I understand the following :
"Saint-Père, fais-moi justice de ce vieillard, mat et bagat amoureux de cette dame qui soit crier à son de trompe à tout le monde, par le pape, la popesse, l'empereur, l'impératrice, le soleil, la lune, les étoiles, la foudre, pris a force, qui soit pendu et traîné au diable."
I understand that it is an invocation to the Angel of Last Judgment of God the Father to render Justice of the vicissitudes of Fame (female deity of Fortuna with Trumpet and wings) ) through the "virtue" of divine celestal ponderation that is winged Temperance (Fama in position ordinal 14)

Fama = winged Lady with trumpet or Roman deity of Fame.


Trumpets :
Trumpet of the Angel of Judgment : trompette du Jugement dernier
Trumpet of Fame : trompette de la Renommée

Wings :
Male Angel Gabriel of Last Judgment
Fama, Roman female deity of Fortuna

Numerology :
Number 14 : female winged Temperance

Aparte : btw, interesting to read in another way Tarot de Marseille''s Temperance wings ...

Conclusion : Mikeh's answer to Huck
"people did think of the tarot in terms of Petrarch's poem, even one or two hundred years after the invention of the tarot sequence, and thought that Fame should be there, somewhere after 13 and before 17 or 18. So why not give it to the lady with wings? Even if it is rather ill-fitting, given that she is Temperance. But some cad had to have it."
Image
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Fame riddle

#93
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: Aparte : btw, interesting to read in another way Tarot de Marseille''s Temperance wings ...
An older thread ...
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=397&start=70#p12556
.... ha, GREAT FINDING
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 722_02.JPG

A detail of the above link:

Image


from the webpage
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Botte ... 722_02.JPG
"Bottega degli embriachi, cofanetto, metà del XIV sec., inv. 722"
Museo civico medievale (Bologna)
That's a 3rd "Winged Temperantia in bone" ... not just another picture of one of the other objects.

Please note, that also Justitia is "winged". I'm not sure about Fortitudo, but it seems, that it is also winged.
This thread has lost some pictures ... Actually there were once (2012) 3 winged Temperances, and all somehow from Venice.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#94
Huck wrote:
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: Aparte : btw, interesting to read in another way Tarot de Marseille''s Temperance wings ...
An older thread ...
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=397&start=70#p12556
.... ha, GREAT FINDING
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 722_02.JPG

A detail of the above link:

Image


from the webpage
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Botte ... 722_02.JPG
"Bottega degli embriachi, cofanetto, metà del XIV sec., inv. 722"
Museo civico medievale (Bologna)
That's a 3rd "Winged Temperantia in bone" ... not just another picture of one of the other objects.

Please note, that also Justitia is "winged". I'm not sure about Fortitudo, but it seems, that it is also winged.
This thread has lost some pictures ... Actually there were once (2012) 3 winged Temperances, and all somehow from Venice.
Great finding indeed.
What a pity we don't have the lost 3 winged Temperance.
What datation is offered?
It is very interesting regarding Tarot de Marseille's iconographical roots in Middle Ages.
Another topic soon ....
Very delicate to articulate for me correctly.
Not only is it kind of 'sacred knowledge" for many French Tarologists involved in the Tradition of the Maîtres Cartiers with epidermic reactions but it's historical approach is strictly limitated to known evidence as a derivation as Phaeded noted. I understand both sides. Yet it's true that's it's iconographical and geometrical roots could well be more ancient that we suppose stricto sensu in historical research.Not as the modern defenders of the tradiion of the Maîtres Cartiers may have supposed and without considering their faiths as specific of a bunch of self-deluded flakes- though I allowed, allow and will allow myself to despice with a loud silence rude pseudo pythagoreans only able to count from one to ten on this topic : if 22 is 10 + 10 + 2 then, Nicomacus of Gerasa , Theon of Smyrna and Boethius as well as Iamblicus can go to sleep ... Scoop : that 's not Da Vinci Code : the PlatonIcian Florentine Academy of Ficino and Pic de la Mirandola only knew how to count on their ten fingers. I forgot Luca da Paccioli, Leonardo di Vinci, and so many others involved in musical proportions. A revolutionary scoop : Renaissance Pythagoreans only knew the first ten numbers! all Pythagorean proportions out of 10 are false...Wow! Who is the genius in extreme simplification at origin of this theory? Another inventor of alternatives realities? He deserves the Nobel prize in Pythagorean Arithmology ...
Raphael's School of Athens and Durer's Melancolia were inutil! Not talking about later Kepler : the celestal music of spheres wad limitaded to the ten first ordinal numbers. Fantastic alternative reality, no?
N importe quoi!

My approach will be iconographIcal - this methodology secures respect to both sides. And respects me!
I hope this way of thinking will open unveilded doors in the Tarot de Marseille's medieval and Ancient Times iconographical roots- based on plausible datas.
I made a try on Fama with Roman winged Fama blowing through a trumpett...
Help welcomed
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re:Fama Vola - Fame Flies

#95
There is no trumpet on the Fama/Temperance cards - nor does she have wings (there is a winged staff? A corruption perhaps of the torch, from the temperance Cup and Torch iconography?)

Here is a judgment(?) however, with wings, trumpets and fama:

Image
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Fame riddle

#96
Alain,

Virtues were occasionally "winged". But mostly not all, but only one. In Venice possibly Temperance was occasionally winged, cause Venice had a special relation to water (as Temperance has).
Possibly there were occasionally Temperance figures used as "Galionsfigur" for ships ... who knows.

Image


If this was an occasional fashion, the idea might have have jumped to other locations with much water and ships ... Marseille for instance. However, I don't know of an example.

I think, the second of the 3 winged temperances of Venice was ..

Image


... and the third was another early ivory figure. Tarothistory.com had it, but somehow it was taken from the web, and it is now gone.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Re:Fama Vola - Fame Flies

#97
SteveM wrote:There is no trumpet on the Fama/Temperance cards - nor does she have wings (there is a winged staff? A corruption perhaps of the torch, from the temperance Cup and Torch iconography?)

Here is a judgment(?) however, with wings, trumpets and fama:

Image

Re

I think
Fama with Temperance = female roman deity Fortuna
Fama with Judgment = Male Angel Gabriel

The text's Lady with wings and trumpet : Fama
If only Trumpet of Judgment, it would have been male Angel Gabriel of Last Judgment. It is not the case.


I understand the following :
"Saint-Père, fais-moi justice de ce vieillard, mat et bagat amoureux de cette dame qui soit crier à son de trompe à tout le monde, par le pape, la popesse, l'empereur, l'impératrice, le soleil, la lune, les étoiles, la foudre, pris a force, qui soit pendu et traîné au diable."
I understand that it is an invocation to the Angel of Last Judgment of God the Father to render Justice of the vicissitudes of Fame (female deity of Fortuna with Trumpet and wings) ) through the "virtue" of divine celestal ponderation that is winged Temperance (Fama in position ordinal 14)

Fama = winged Lady with trumpet or Roman deity of Fame.


Trumpets :
Trumpet of the Angel of Judgment : trompette du Jugement dernier
Trumpet of Fame : trompette de la Renommée

Wings :
Male Angel Gabriel of Last Judgment
Fama, Roman female deity of Fortuna

Numerology :
Number 14 : female winged Temperance



Conclusion : Mikeh's answer to Huck
"people did think of the tarot in terms of Petrarch's poem, even one or two hundred years after the invention of the tarot sequence, and thought that Fame should be there, somewhere after 13 and before 17 or 18. So why not give it to the lady with wings? Even if it is rather ill-fitting, given that she is Temperance. But some cad had to have it."
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Re:Fama Vola - Fame Flies

#98
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:

Conclusion : Mikeh's answer to Huck
"people did think of the tarot in terms of Petrarch's poem, even one or two hundred years after the invention of the tarot sequence, and thought that Fame should be there, somewhere after 13 and before 17 or 18. So why not give it to the lady with wings? Even if it is rather ill-fitting, given that she is Temperance. But some cad had to have it."
Except that, until Noblet she didn't have wings (in extent tarot cards at least, as far as I recollect) - and in the patterns that temperance has the name of Fama - such as the vieville - she does not have wings? Nor a trumpet, for that matter!
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Re:Fama Vola - Fame Flies

#99
SteveM wrote:
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:

Conclusion : Mikeh's answer to Huck
"people did think of the tarot in terms of Petrarch's poem, even one or two hundred years after the invention of the tarot sequence, and thought that Fame should be there, somewhere after 13 and before 17 or 18. So why not give it to the lady with wings? Even if it is rather ill-fitting, given that she is Temperance. But some cad had to have it."
Except that, until Noblet she didn't have wings (in extent tarot cards at least, as far as I recollect) - and in the patterns that temperance has the name of Fama - such as the vieville - she does not have wings? Nor a trumpet, for that matter!
Yes.
Yet ...
Huck 's finding suggests some Temperances with wings but not in cards for sure...
The trumpett was in the text ...not on the image : "cette dame qui soit crier à son de trompe "
"Saint-Père, fais-moi justice de ce vieillard, mat et bagat amoureux de cette dame qui soit crier à son de trompe à tout le monde, par le pape, la popesse, l'empereur, l'impératrice, le soleil, la lune, les étoiles, la foudre, pris a force, qui soit pendu et traîné au diable."
I understand that it is an invocation to the male Angel Gabrel of Last Judgment of God the Father to render Justice of the vicissitudes of Fama (ancient Roman female deity of Fortuna with Trumpet and wings) ) through the "virtue" of divine celestal ponderation that is winged Temperance (Fama in position ordinal 14) - unwinged in the image

Fama riddle...definitely

Added later
Image

Fama Vola is perfect for Judgment
Wings are there.
Fame flies.

But, the difficulty is that for my understanding, Angel Gabriel (male) cannot be the "Dame" (female) qui sait crier à son de trompe à tout le Monde (?) - unless we refer to Jesus statement, if my memory is good, that Angels do not have sexual determination... yet, a little overloaded for me
A Female representation of Gabriel as Angel of Last Judgment -even not in cards- would strenghten the case.
?
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Re:Fama Vola - Fame Flies

#100
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote: The trumpett was in the text ...not on the image
and if the text refers to the image on the cards then it is in the image, the image of judgement --
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

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