Re: Fame riddle

#71
Huck:
Then I found a list in the Tarot-Rules book of Dummett/McLeod. This contained rätoromanische names for Tarot cards. Rätoromanisch is a language. It is spoken in the region designed as "rätoromanisch" on the map. Other colors at the design a dominance of German, French and of Italian spoken in Switzerland.

The name of the card 14 ... usually Temperance ... is given with an equivalent for "Angel". This remembered me on the Fama Sol problem.
Image


Image
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#72
With the recent attention for fame and its combinations to other figures ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=862&start=40#p18046
... it seems appropriate to return to the sleepy article "Fama's riddle"

***********************

It's an interesting feature, that old Fame-Fama was a rather bad figure. It seems, that it was redefined to something good with Petrarca.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fama
German wiki tells relative much about the old Fama.
Modern Fama just gets one sentence: "In der Neuzeit erscheint Fama vor allem als Personifikation des Ruhmes. Ihr Attribut ist eine Posaune, mit der sie die ruhmreiche Tat entsprechend lautstark verbreitet."

Not much "old Fama" at ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pheme
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fama
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fama
... the articles present more or less only "modern Fama".

German wiki:
Fama ist in der römischen Mythologie die Gottheit des Ruhmes wie auch des Gerüchts. Der Fama entspricht in der griechischen Mythologie die Pheme (griechisch Φήμη). Personifikation des Ruhmes ist bei den Römern noch die Gloria.

Pheme und Ossa
Bei Homer erscheint Pheme als Ossa (Ὄσσα). Einmal – in der Ilias – bedeutet der Ausdruck "Pheme" den Ruhm, der als Bote des Zeus das griechische Heer begleitet, das andere Mal – in der Odyssee – verkörpert er das Gerücht.[2]

Ursprünglich bezeichnet Pheme – sprachgeschichtlich verwandt mit phemi, »sprechen« – einfach eine Nachricht oder einen Hinweis unklaren Ursprungs, im Unterschied zu einer aus bekannter Quelle stammenden Nachricht. Daraus wurde Pheme, das Gerücht, die Anmutung – aber auch das Vorzeichen und das Omen. In Sophokles' Drama König Ödipus ist sie ein Kind von Elpis, der personifizierten Hoffnung.[4]

In Hesiods Werke und Tage wird sie als Allegorie und Quasi-Gottheit beschrieben:

Pheme ist ihrer Natur nach böse, leicht, oh so leicht aufzulesen, aber schwer zu tragen und kaum mehr abzulegen. Sie verschwindet nie völlig, sobald sie großgeredet ist von der Menge. Tatsächlich ist sie eine Art Göttin.
In mythologischen Texten gibt es nur wenige anschauliche Darstellungen der Figur. Mehrfach erscheint Pheme bei Nonnos von Panopolis; dort wird sie als geflügeltes und vielzüngiges Wesen beschrieben, was ihrem allegorischen Charakter durchaus entspricht. Es fehlt ihr an persönlicher Kontur und auch einen Kult scheint es nicht gegeben zu haben. Nur Aischines berichtet von einem nach der Schlacht am Eurymedon durch die Athener errichteten Altar der Pheme, der von Pausanias als Kuriosum und Beleg dafür erwähnt wird, dass die Athener schlicht Jedem einen Altar errichten. Aischines unterscheidet dabei zwischen Pheme als etwas wie von selbst Erscheinendes und der den einzelnen Menschen belangenden Diabole (Διαβολή „Verleumdung“). Dagegen ist bei Achilleus Tatios "die Pheme" eine Tochter der Diabole:

Gerücht [Pheme] ist die Tochter der Verleumdung [Diabole]. Verleumdung ist schärfer als ein Schwert, stärker als Feuer und beseuselt mehr als der Gesang der Sirene. Das Gerücht rinnt schneller als Wasser dahin, läuft schneller als der Wind, und fliegt schneller als irgend ein Vogel.[9]

In der lateinischen Literatur ist die Fama an erster Stelle bei Vergil und Ovid anzutreffen. Daneben erscheint sie auch bei Gaius Valerius Flaccus, wo sie zum Werkzeug der Bestrafung der lemnischen Frauen durch Aphrodite wird. Das Gerücht, ihre Männer wollten sie verlassen, stachelt die Frauen dazu an, sie zu ermorden. Obwohl sie als dämonisches Wesen wirkt, wird Fama hier durchaus ambivalent beschrieben: Sie gehöre weder zum Himmel noch zur Hölle, so heißt es, sondern schwebe dazwischen. Wer sie höre, lache zuerst über sie, werde sie aber so lange nicht wieder los, bis Städte unter dem Schlag geschwätziger Zungen erzitterten. In der Thebais des Publius Papinius Statius schließlich erscheint Fama als eine Art Furie und Begleiterin des Gottes Mars.[11]

Fama in der Aeneis

In Vergils Aeneis ist Fama eine Tochter der Gaia und eine Gigantin. Anfangs ist sie klein, doch wenn sie sich fortbewegt, schwillt sie zu riesenhafter Größe an, bis sie allen Raum zwischen Himmel und Erde ausfüllt. Unter jeder Feder ihrer beiden Flügel befindet sich ein aufgerissenes Auge, ein schwatzender Mund und ein gespitztes Ohr. Bei Nacht saust sie auf und ab zwischen Erde und Himmel, ähnlich dem Eichhörnchen Ratatöskr, das in der Weltenesche Yggdrasil hin und her huscht, um beim Austausch von Gehässigkeiten zwischen dem im Wipfel hausenden Adler und dem an der Wurzel nagenden Drachen Nidhöggr behilflich zu sein. Was Fama verbreitet, ist ihr gleich, sie hat den Verkünder der Wahrheit und den Verleumder gleich gern. Das zeigt sich dann auch darin, wie sie die (zutreffende) Nachricht vom Stelldichein des Aeneas und der karthagischen Königin Dido (Mythologie) im Lande verbreitet: Ein trojanischer Prinz sei gekommen, die Königin sei ihm verfallen und hörig und die beiden verbrächten den Winter in Lustraserei und vergäßen darüber die Regierungsgeschäfte.[12]

Die Burg der Fama bei Ovid

Auch Ovid entwickelt in seinen Metamorphosen eine komplexe Allegorie der Fama: Im Mittelpunkt der Welt, zwischen Himmel und Erde, zwischen Land und See, gleich nah und gleich fern, befinde sich ein Ort, von dem aus Alles gesehen und überwacht, jede Stimme gehört und jedes Wort verzeichnet werde. Dort habe sich Fama auf einem hohen Gipfel ihre Burg errichtet, einen türlosen Wachtturm mit tausend Öffnungen, vollständig aus hallendem Erz bestehend, das jeden Schall verdoppele und wieder verdoppele. Im Inneren gebe es niemals Stille, doch auch kein deutliches Wort, sondern nur Gemurmel und halb verständliches Gezischel. Hier sei das Heim von Credulitas, der „Leichtgläubigkeit“, von Error, dem „Irrtum“, von Laetitia, dem „Übermut“, von Susurri, dem „Geflüster“, und von Seditio, der „Zwietracht“. In der Neuzeit erscheint Fama vor allem als Personifikation des Ruhmes. Ihr Attribut ist eine Posaune, mit der sie die ruhmreiche Tat entsprechend lautstark verbreitet.
The major sources of the article are Roscher (mythological dictionary) and the grosser Pauly (a monster work), about which I've occasionally talked here. The author gives to the details:

Homer Ilias 2.93ff
Homer Odyssee 2.216ff, 24.412ff
Wilhelm Pape Griechisch-Deutsches Handwörterbuch. Bd. 2, Braunschweig 1914, S. 1267f, s. v. Φήμη
Sophokles: König Ödipus 151
Hesiod Werke und Tage 760ff
Nonnos Dionysiaka 5.370ff, 18.1f, 44.123ff, 47.1ff
Aischines in Timarchum 128 mit Scholien und de falsa legatione 144f
Pausanias Beschreibung Griechenlands 1.17.1
Achilleus Tatios 6.10.4-5
Valerius Flaccus Argonautika 2.115ff
Statius Thebais 2.205ff, 4.32ff, 9.32ff
Vergil Aeneis 4.174ff
Ovid Metamorphosen 12.39-63
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#73
The local search engine gives the info, that "Pheme" wasn't mentioned till now at our Forum. "Ossa" appeared only as the name of a mountain ... near to the Olymp (also a mountain).
The Vale of Tempe (Greek: Τέμπη) is a gorge in the Tempi municipality of northern Thessaly, Greece, located between Olympus to the north and Ossa to the south. The valley is 10 kilometers long and as narrow as 25 meters in places, with cliffs nearly 500 meters high, and through it flows the Pineios River on its way to the Aegean Sea. In ancient times, it was celebrated by Greek poets as a favorite haunt of Apollo and the Muses. On the right bank of the Pineios sat a temple to Apollo, near which the laurels used to crown the victorious in the Pythian Games were gathered.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_of_Tempe

This seems to be the place, where the Pythian games took their laurels from. This was connected to some festivities.
This was discussed in the Daphne thread ...
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1108&p=17170&hilit=ossa#p17170
... where I gave arguments, that Daphne had her origin at the river Ladon. In a later mythical development (at least according my theory) the father of Daphne became the river Peneios, which runs through the Vale of Tempe and where the laurels were collected, which were used for the Pythian games.

The name Ossa for a mountain near the Olymp let me assume, that this name isn't an accidental use, but given with mythological intention. Pheme-Ossa had the function to spread the news from the Olymp ... in one of these earlier myth fantasies.

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http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Pheme.html

... has a good English article to Pheme and Ossa, with a lot of translated passages from the mythographers, which mentioned Pheme and Ossa.

For instance:
OSSA PERSONIFICATION OF RUMOUR

Homer, Iliad 2. 93 ff (trans. Lattimore) (Greek epic C8th B.C.) :
"[The Greeks] marched in order by companies to the assembly, and Ossa (Rumour) walked blazing among them, Zeus' messenger, to hasten them along."

Homer, Odyssey 2. 216 ff (trans. Shewring) (Greek epic C8th B.C.) :
"[Telemakhos (Telemachus) departs in search of his father Odysseus :] ‘Perhaps some human witness will speak, perhaps I shall hear some rumour (ossa) that comes from Zeus, a great source of tidings for mankind.’"

Homer, Odyssey 24. 412 ff :
"Ossa (Rumour) as herald was speeding hotfoot through the city, crying the news of the suitors' [of Penelope] hideous death and doom."
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#74
MikeH at ..
viewtopic.php?f=11&p=18058#p18053
Thanks for pointing out the difference between ancient and modern Fama, Huck. We are concerned with the modern, I think.
... .-) well, I think, that the thread "Panegyric of Bruzio Visconti by Bartolomeo da Bologn" has another theme than just "Fame".
Actually it's a good question, how and when Fame changed its character. Fame in the Amorosa Visione by Boccaccio (which preceded the Trionfi poem of Petrarca) we have ...

according MikeH at
The CVI card has at least one important attribute of Fama: the world, as where glory spreads and shines. This is in Boccaccio's Amorosa Visione, VI.64-75), Hollander translation:

Et entro l'altre cose ch'ivi scorte
allora furon da me 'ntorno a questa
eccelsa donnam, nimica di morte
nel magnanimo petto, fu ch'a sesta
un cerchio si moveva alto e ritondo,
da' pie passando a lei sovra la testa.
Ne credo che sia cosa in tutto 'I mondo,
villa, paese, dimestico o strano,
che non paresse dentro di quel tondo.
Era sovra costei, in areo piano,
un verso scritto che dicea leggendo:
"Io son la Gloria del popol mondano".

(And among other things which I noticed there
around about this supreme
lady in her magnanimous breast
the enemy of death, was a perfect circle
rotating lofty and round,
from beneath her feet and over her head.
I do not believe there can be anything
in the whole world, town or country, domestic or foreign,
which would not appear in that circle.
Over the lady, in pure gold, there was
a verse which said when one read it:
"I am the Glory of the worldly folk.")
Fame as enemy of Death is a standard idea in the Trionfi poems of Petrarca, each trump below eternity is beaten by another.

Image


The "perfect circle", as MikeH observed, becomes later a stylish element of Fama representation:

MikeH ...
Nearly all the post-1440 Florentine Triumphs of Fame illustrations in Petrarch Trionfi manuscripts and cassone have that circle, probably a two-dimensional description of a globe. See viewtopic.php?f=11&t=858&start=60#p13820 Boccaccio calls it a circle because, in the poem, he is looking at a fresco, perhaps even Giotto's lost fresco in Milan, some have speculated.


Indeed Fama is often the only one of the six, which has a circle ..
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cate ... f_Petrarch#/
... though not always it has the circle.
In this version ...



... Eternity has the circle-object and Fame not.

"Gloria" is mentioned by German wiki as an (old ?) Roman personification of fame. My attempt to confirm this elsewhere failed. My Latin wordbook knows it, of course, but doesn't indicate a personification. Roscher didn't give it an article. "Gloria" was used in the church for religious matters.

In the last line of the Boccaccio passage ...
"I am the Glory of the worldly folk."
... the connection is formed that Fama (worldly folk) is a lower Glory against a better Glory somewhere else (likely that of religion).
So here the terminus Fama is given a negative touch, somehow sounding a little bit like Boiardo's comment to the Fool card.
Mondo, da pazzi vanamente amato,
Portarti un fol su l'asino presume,
Ché i stolti sol confidano in tuo stato.

World, you are vainly loved by the mad,
And a fool thinks he can bring you on his donkey,
Because the stupid only trust your state.
Fools adore the world.

So Boccaccio's Fama isn't totally a "good Fama". Boccaccio uses the word "Fama" 5 times, perhaps one should check the places (I don't have the Hollander translation).
http://www.classicitaliani.it/boccaccio ... isione.htm

Likely he knew the metamorphoses:
Ovid, Metamorphoses 12. 39 ff :
"At the world's centre lies a place between the lands and seas and regions of the sky, the limits of the threefold universe, whence all things everywhere, however far, are scanned and watched, and every voice and word reaches its listening ears. Here Fama (Rumour) dwells her chosen home set on the highest peak constructed with a thousand apertures and countless entrances and never a door. It's open night and day and built throughout of echoing bronze; it all reverberates, repeating voices, doubling what it hears. Inside, no peace, no silence anywhere, and yet no noise, but muted murmurings like waves one hears of some far-distant sea, or like a last late rumbling thunder-roll, when Juppiter [Zeus] has made the rain-clouds crash. Crowds throng its halls, a lightweight populace that comes and goes, and rumours everywhere, thousands, false mixed with true, roam to and fro, and words flit by phrases all confused. Some pour their tattle into idle ears, some pass on what they've gathered, and as each gossip adds something new the story grows. Here is Credulitas (Credulity), here reckless Error (Error), groundless Laetitia (Delight), Susurri (Whispers) of unknown source, sudden Seditio (Sedition), overwhelming Timores (Fears). All that goes on in heaven or sea or land Fama (Rumour) observes and scours the whole wide world. Now she had brought the news [to Troy] that ships from Greece were on their way with valiant warriors: not unforeseen the hostile force appears."
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#75
Alberti's Theater Play "Philodoxus" (1424) ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=831&p=11853&hilit= ... 424#p11853
... has 3 pairs of men and women

Philodoxus ("I love Doxia"), the good hero, admires and finally gets Doxia (= Glory)
Fortunius ("Luck"), the bad hero, also wants Doxia, but is finally content with Phimia (= Fama)
Phroneus (somehow the person of Alberti himself, the friend of the good hero) detects his earlier wife Mnimia (somehow "Memory")

*************

Phimia speaks and acts only in scene VII, there she plays the chaperon to protect the reputation of Philodoxus and Doxia.

In scene XII Phimia is the victim. Fortunius wanted to kidnap Doxia, but Doxia escaped. So he took Phimia. But the scene is not played, but only described by later talking.

In scene XVIII and XIX Tychia (= Fortuna) brokers a trade with Chronos (= Father Time), that Fortunius is excused, if he marries Phimia. Again Phimia is not present herself.

*************

Doxia = Gloria must be the Beauty of the show.
Phimia = Fama, her sister, should be nice, but not as nice as Doxia
Mnimia = Memory should be nasty, but presents the "really good one", and she is closely connected (she's the guardian) to Alithia = Truth, which is the daughter of Chronos.

Alithia ("Truth") speaks 4 times:
1. "what else? When they had grabbed Phimia, they left." (on the request of Mnimia, scene 11)
2. "Shall we go home then?" (at begin scene XIII)
3. "Hello, Father" (to Chronos, Scene XIX)
4. "Yes, Father" (answering Cronos, scene XIX)

Well, really a good daughter of Time. Not too much words, only the essentials. "Phimia was kidnapped" ... that's the story.

Mnimia (Memory) instead gives all the words, which display the details.

Phimia (Fame) has 4 longer sentences in the scene VII ... and after that she becomes the center of the scandal, about which the other talk, but she isn't on stage:

Image


Always she talks about the risk to lose the reputation - of Doxia and Philodoxus. Well, and then she loses all reputation herself.

Scene 11 is the star scene of Fortunius, and it's the last appearance of Fortunius on stage:

Image


Fortunius relates himself to Apoll. Apoll attempted to get Daphne, but Daphne escaped. Fortunius attempts to get Doxia, but Doxia escapes to the roof.
The kidnappers grab Phimia instead.

Finally ... all agree, that it might be best for the reputation of Phimia, if Fortunius marries Phimia.

And Doxia gets Philodoxus, and Phroneus is happy to have found his Mnimia again.

For more studies, see ...
http://parnaseo.uv.es/Celestinesca/Nume ... umento.pdf

***************

It's clear, that Phimia = Fama has a dubious role with all her interests for good reputation. That's the state of 1424, when Alberti wrote this theater play. Petrarca's poem "Trionfi" likely hadn't the same fame as in the 1440s or 1470s.

******************

Another early Fame description we've with Chaucer's "House of Fame", "probably written between 1379 and 1380".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_House_of_Fame

The text is here:
http://ummutility.umm.maine.edu/necastr ... hf/hf.html
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#76
Alberti's "Phimia" refers to the classical "Phimia" that you documented earlier, ephemeral reputation. Petrarch and Boccaccio's "fama" is something else, closer to "glory" in the sense of "phimia" due to true virtue in the judgment of history. It seems to me that Petrarch and Boccaccio were more famous than Alberti.

Re: Fame riddle

#77
mikeh wrote:Alberti's "Phimia" refers to the classical "Phimia" that you documented earlier, ephemeral reputation. Petrarch and Boccaccio's "fama" is something else, closer to "glory" in the sense of "phimia" due to true virtue in the judgment of history. It seems to me that Petrarch and Boccaccio were more famous than Alberti.
I think, this is translated from Alberti's own explanations:

Image

http://parnaseo.uv.es/Celestinesca/Nume ... umento.pdf
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#78
The operative part here is "as the closest word", as it is, in pronunciation and somewhat in meaning. But Boccaccio and Petrarch have a more exalted opinion of "fama" than Alberti does of "phemia", closer to "gloria", but in the secular sense, as exemplified by the people that Boccaccio and Petrarch list (different sorts of lists, actually, because Boccaccio doesn't include those famous for wisdom; he already included them in another part of the poem). To get the meaning, you have to look at the examples. Petrarch, at least, hopes to be among those with Fama, even as he recognizes its insufficiency against time.

Re: Fame riddle

#79
mikeh wrote:The operative part here is "as the closest word", as it is, in pronunciation and somewhat in meaning. But Boccaccio and Petrarch have a more exalted opinion of "fama" than Alberti does of "phemia", closer to "gloria", but in the secular sense, as exemplified by the people that Boccaccio and Petrarch list (different sorts of lists, actually, because Boccaccio doesn't include those famous for wisdom; he already included them in another part of the poem). To get the meaning, you have to look at the examples. Petrarch, at least, hopes to be among those with Fama, even as he recognizes its insufficiency against time.
hm, I don't search Petrarch's Fame, I search for examples of the old ambiguous Fame with a negative touch. I thought this was clear ... I wrote:
"Actually it's a good question, how and when Fame changed its character. Fame in the Amorosa Visione by Boccaccio (which preceded the Trionfi poem of Petrarca) we have ..."

So I'm happy to find signs of another opinion in the writing of Chaucer, Boccaccio and Alberti. Boccaccio spoke of Fama as the "Gloria (positive word) of the popol mondano (negative word)", this degrades the word Fama in my opinion.
As I said, there are 4 other appearances of Fama in the Amaroso Visione, perhaps one should control, if these were also negative.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#80
Good suggestion, looking for "fama" in the poem. Here they are (Hollander translation; "Gloria" is translated as "glory"; the Italian is at http://www.classicitaliani.it/boccaccio ... isione.htm):

Canto 6, line 13 (referring to Dante):
Your fame shall endure, well recognized, glory of the Florentines, to those ingrates your life had little enough repute [conosciuta]!
Canto 12, line 5 (I start at line 1):
I went on looking at that valorous people/ not without great admiration,/ bringing forth new thoughts within me about them./ It seemed to me, so I believe, that truly / great fame should make them /sempiternally glorious.
Canto 26, line 19 (to a conquering hero who took a slave girl as his spoil):
"Do you not understand/ what is obvious to everyone, / since your repute [fama] now bears the news which counters the glory of your earlier deeds?"
Canto 30, line 23:
It is true that some, more valorous than others,/ merited fame, yet even if the world endure, their glorious names shall die. / For fame [questa, in original] is like the grass / which Aries pushes forth for you; then, / later, Libra arrives and turns it dry and brown.
Canto 34, line 56:
I speak of Priam, of whose supreme worth, great riches, fame, exalted honor, and of the boldness of his many sons, one could never give fit account; ...
Only one, canto 26, is in a negative context. It seems to me that "fama" as the "gloria del popol mondano" by itself in Amarosa Visione is neutral between negative and positive. Here is a dictionary definition of the word in modern English, which seems to fit Boccaccio well enough: "fame: the condition of being known or talked about by many people, especially on account of notable achievements." Here "notable" means "worthy of attention" according to the same dictionary.

Added later: Actually, the modern definition is more positive than negative; hence the translator in the negative instance above says "repute" for "fama" rather than "fame". In that way it differs from Boccaccio's usage, which seems to be more neutral. However even Boccaccio doesn't use "fama" for the Florentines' view of Dante in his time; so the difference is rather small.

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