Re: Fame riddle

#61
Thanks for translating the Alciato passage, Marco. That this "crucem" is in the same word as the "crux" we are trying to understand, is good support for your argument that "crux" means "torture" in both places. Who is being tortured is still ambiguous: it could be Judas, morally tortured, or Jesus, physically tortured.There is no association with Jesus more than Judas. It might even mean both.

Upon reflection, it seems to me that not every aspect of the "fama" riddle is solved. We still aren't clear why "fama" should be associated with a lady pouring from one jug to another, apparently adding water to wine (as indicated by the red clor at the top of the bottom jug). That image, and that practice was associated with Temperance. But the virtue Temperance, or Attrempance (which means "moderation" according to an on-line French dictionary), is dubiously necessary and certainly not sufficient to secure "fama" in any sense.

This is where I think my interpretation of the lady as Hebe fits. Hebe, and after her Ganymede, poured the nectar of continued life (and immortality, if drunk again at appropriate intervals) to gods and heroes. It allowed mortals to live with the gods after death. Her act, given on Zeus's order, granted glory, fama in an otherworldly sense, to famous heroes. Since Hebe also had the power to forgive trespasses (see my earlier post), there was an analogy with Christ in two ways. Fama, in a form now open to everyone, defeats Death.

Another interpretation: perhaps water is not being added to wine. Rather, water is being changed to wine, as in the miracle at Cana. If that miracle is a prefiguration of the Eucharist, then again, what we have is the preparing, by an angel, of the drink of life, a cupful of glory. An image formerly associated with Temperance is now associated with Fama.

But then why the "atrempance" on the Bodet version, along with the "fama"? Is it just ignorance of this change of meaning, from Temperance to Fama, or a desire to keep all of what came before in the card, despite the inconsistency?

Perhaps, but here an alchemical interpretation (perhaps also an esoteric interpretation of the miracle at Cana) is relevant. If the red substance is not wine but the alchemical elixir, the rubedo stage, then again we have the confering of continued life. In this connection Charly Alverda, whose book on the Vievil I now have received, on p. 33 quotes an alchemist named "le Comte de la Marche," in something named Parole delaissee:
Notre oeuvre n'est autre chose que vapeur et eau, qui est dite mondifiante, ou nettoyant, blanchissant, rubifiant et déjetant la noirceur des corps, et les philosophes l'ont nomée Eau Permenente [...]Alphidius a nommé cette eau attrempance ou mesure des sages.
My attempt at translation: Our work is no other thing than vapor and water, which is said worldifying, or cleaning, whitening, rubifying and removing the blackness of the body, and the philosophers have called it Permenent Water {...] Alphidius called this water temperance or measure of the wise.

Notice the word "attrempance," which also appears, atypically in the tarot, as "atrempance" on the Bodet version of the card. In the citation from Aphidius --and I have no idea how authentic it is--the liquid is Glory but also, in the sense of "proper measure," Temperance as well.

Re: Fame riddle

#62
I think the usage of the conventional personification of Temperance to illustrate post-mortem Fame suggests a secondary usage, an adapation. The same sort of secondary adaptation occurs with the Eastern ordering where the cardinal virtue of Justice is placed between the Angel (Resurrection) and the World. In this view, then, the inventors of these two sequences, B and C (Eastern and Western), changed their "inherited" order (perhaps A, with the virtues grouped together), to make a different narrative out of that part of the sequence; another force influencing the unmooring of the Virtues may have been a need to keep Death numbered 13 when the cards came to be numbered (it is noteworthy that the suppression of the Popess in Florence and all A decks dependent on the Florentine model made this raising of a virtue above Death unnecessary (if indeed it is true that the 13 issue forced it) since with only one Pope and two Emperors, the count in Florence from the Bagatto to Death is just 13; the Bolognese, when they came to number their cards in the late 18th century, kept all four Papi (as Mori by now), began their numbering with Love at 5, meaning that the Bagatto was not considered to have a number; in this way,for Bologna, Death comes out at 13 as well, without dropping a Papa or spreading out the Virtues).

In other words, there is no need to seek an iconographic explanation for the choice of Temperance to represent Fame. Temperance does not intrinsically represent Fame, any more than Justice intrinsically represents the Last Judgment. They are both secondary usages laid on top of the conventional images, afterthoughts (as giving Temperance a banner explicitly saying "Sol Fama", or a pair of wings like those with which Fame is often shown).

If either were the original concept of the trump sequence, we would expect a conventional personification of Fame after Death, or the Archangel Michael with sword and scales between the Resurrection and the World.
Image

Re: Fame riddle

#63
I agree with Ross: this looks like an "adaptation" or an "overloaded" meaning, where Fame is superimposed to Temperance.

By the way, Francesco Piscina comments Temperance with this words:

La onde se ne viene la Temperanza che è virtù bellissima, poi che ci modera ne i piaceri corporali secondo che ordina la legge, e qui interpretata per ogn' altra virtù, la qual non teme punto colpo di Morte. ne meno inconstanza di Fortuna, conciòsiache anzi virtù siano quelle che rendano immortale e che secondo il parer dil Poeta traggono l' huomo dal Sepolcro e lo serbano à longa & immortal vita.

"[After Death] Temperance comes: a most beautiful virtue that moderates us in the pleasures of the body, according to the law, and that can here be interpreted as any other virtue, that does not fear the strikes of Death, nor the inconstancy of Fortune: on the contrary, virtues make men immortal, according to the opinion of the Poet, they take the man out of the grave and preserve him for a long and immortal life."

The Poet is Petrarca, and the reference is to the Triumph of Fame:

quando, mirando intorno su per l'erba,
vidi da l'altra parte giugner quella
che trae l'uom del sepolcro e 'n vita il serba.


"Then, as I gazed across the grassy vale
I saw appearing on the other side
Her who saves man from the tomb, and gives him life."

So both Piscina and Vieville recur to Fame to clarify the position of Temperance in the sequence. Piscina is explicitly taking Temperance as a symbol of all Virtues, and possibly he is implicitly saying (with is quote from Petrarch) that Fame is a consequence of Virtue. Petrarch, as Boiardo, does not say that Fame gives immortal life, it only extends it for a while (through the memory of one's name and actions). On the other hand Piscina (and Vieville, I think) speaks of the ultimate victory on Death granted by Christian virtue. The two concepts are different, but they also have analogies: they are quite fit to be conflated.

Re: Fame riddle

#64
I agree with Ross, too, Marco. Temperance as Fame is a secondary use of the image.

However to be a secondary use, there has to be something in the meaning of the card to enable it to get that use. "Justice" can be put after "Judgment" because the last judgment is what in the last resort renders justice, so that the wicked are punished and the good rewarded. Temperance, by itself, can defeat death temporarily, in that it involves care of the physical body. But it often does not defeat death at all, e.g. in battle. And after death it certainly does not defeat, or "trump," death. Fame, however, does defeat death, as everyone knew from Petrarch. A move to reinterpret Temperance as Fame is a natural one. But it is not as natural as the move to reinterpret Justice as the result of the Last Judgment, because Temperance and Fame are different things.

Piscina's commentary on the card represents a way of explaining how Temperance amounts to the same thing as Fame. It stands for all the virtues, and practicing all the virtues gives one "long and immortal life." Piscina then slightly misquotes Petrarch, who just said "life," with no implication of immortality. Piscina probably has in mind fama as gloria.

It seems to me that Piscina's explanation is forced. He is trying to moralize Temperance coming after Death, and that is what he comes up with. Perhaps he has a card in front of him with "Fama" on it. If so, it would be suggest Petrarch to him. But Temperance is one virtue, not all of them. And even practicing all three virtues does not grant immortality, in the sense of saving from Hell. There is a host of sins, departures from other virtues, that can send one there; what is needed above all is Christ's Church. So it seems to me that this "Fama" card implies the sacraments, a reinterpretation aided by the "sol fama" banner. However some people, reading Piscina or thinking of it themselves, could also see it as "all the virtues" which in a pagan way leads to immortality.

I mention the alchemical interpretation only as an esoteric interpretation of that time, one that would not be the only or primary meaning when Temperance is card 14. We know from the Sola-Busca that alchemy was not foreign to at least one tarot, made for the few.

In this connection there are two other considerations. The only other early version of the card that I could find with the spelling "Atrempance" was the Anonymous Parisian. Here it is again (http://www.poker168.com/bwg/bwg_tl7.htm ... /t7/15.jpg[/img]
Of this image Bertrand wrote
. The Paris deck is close but different with the Atrempance representing a woman pouring water - to temper a fire ? or maybe is she pouring oil ... or maybe is she making a quenching ("trempe" in french).
These interpretations keep the connection to "atrempance" but do not account for how her action might be a trumping of death. It seems to me that she might be pouring a cool liquid into a cauldron for heating, as in alchemy or cooking. There is something metallic on the ground to which the stream is directed, probably a container. The Catelin Geoffrey, Vieville, and the others later with "Atrempance" do have one on the ground. Perhaps a container on the ground was more common than not, also with flames or some other indication of heat (the flames might even be coming from the container). If so, then the meaning is transformation into something that defeats the destruction of the old substance.

Vievil's titles are not on the cards. but on the Ace of Coins and Two of Cups. This leads to my second consideration, with two interpretations. For Kaplan (II pp. 189, 307) the title corresponding to XIIII is "DAME." If so, the lady's identification with Temperance is thereby somewhat obscured.

This term "DAME" appears in a sentence that starts on the the Ace of Coins and continues on the 2 of Cups (images from http://membres.multimania.fr/tarobat/me ... eville.htm:

Image

Image

PERE-SAINCT-FAIT--
MOY-YUSTICE-DE CE-
VIELART-MA-E-BAGA
AMOUREUX-DE---
CESTE-DAMEQVY--
SOIT CRYE ASONDE
TROMPE PAR TOVT
LE MONDE DE PAR
LE PAPEL A PAPESSE
L'ANPEREVRLINPERAT
RYCE LE SOLEIL
L'ALUNE-LES ESTOILES
L'A-FOVDRE PRINS
AFORCE QVY SOIT
PENDUETRANNAY
AV DYABLE"
I am mostly concerned with the part on top of the Ace of Coins. Some people read the last word of that part (end of the 5th line above) as "QVV." There is no such word as "quu." So some people (Ross, I think) take it as "que," But others (Kaplan) take it as "qui." I think it is probably "QVY" and thus "qui" or "who." The difference comes out when we compare translations.

Kaplan's translation (II, p. 307):
Holy Father, render me Justice (VII) by this Old Man
(XI Hermit), The Fool and The Juggler (I), The Lovers
(VI), of this lady (XIIII Temperance) who would shout
at the sound of the trumpet (XX Judgment) for all the
World (XXI) in the name of the Pope (V), The Popess
(II), The Emperor (IV), The Empress (III), The Sun
(XIX), (continuing on Two of Cups) The Moon (XVIII),
The Star (XVII) and Lightning (XVI) to take by Force
(IX) The Hanged Man (XII) to drag him (VIII The
Chariot?) to the Devil (XV).
Ross's translation (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=22381&page=2):
HOLY FATHER DO
ME JUSTICE OF THIS
OLDSTER MA[T] AND BAGA[T]
AMOROUS OF
THIS LADY LET
IT BE CRIED BY SOUND OF
TRUMPET ALL
THE WORLD ON PART OF
THE POPE THE POPESS
THE EMPEROR THE EMPR-
ESS THE SUN
THE MOON THE STARS
THE LIGHTNING TAKEN
AT FORCE LET HIM BE
HANGED & DRAGGED
TO THE DEVIL

Idiomatic:

HOLY FATHER,
RID ME OF THIS
OLD MAN, FOOL AND CHEAT,
AMOROUS OF
THIS LADY -
LET IT BE ANNOUNCED BY THE SOUND OF
THE TRUMPET BY ALL
THE WORLD, BY
THE POPE, THE POPESS,
THE EMPEROR, THE EMPRESS
THE SUN,
THE MOON, THE STARS,
THE LIGHTNING! TAKEN
AT FORCE, LET HIM BE
HANGED AND DRAGGED
TO THE DEVIL!
But as I see it, the whole phrase "QVV SOIT CRYE" means "who would let it be cried" and not either "who would shout" (Kaplan) or "let it be cried" (Ross). I would give a similar treatment of the unambiguous "QVY" that occurs later on: "who would let him be hanged" and not Ross's "let him be hanged (Kaplan is hopeless here). I am no expert on 16th-17th century French, so I would appreciate input from those who know it better (of whom several have contributed to this thread already). Whatever the correct translation, I think the "QUY" has to be included.

Except in relation to the two places I have indicated, I have no problems with Ross's translation. But the "do me justice" cannot be rendered "rid me" any more, if he wants justice on behalf of the old man. (Also, I would have said "trivial performer" instead of "cheat," as "bagat" is related to "bagatella" and the "Bagatino" of Carnival. I don't see anything morally reprehensible in the word "bagat," except possibly the foolishness of thinking one is more than the trivial being one is.)

In our current concerns, the question is, who is this "DAME" loved by the "VIELART" (http://membres.multimania.fr/tarobat/me ... lle/11.jpg)?

There are actually two possibilities. She could be Fortuna, as the person on top of card X with the stick (http://membres.multimania.fr/tarobat/me ... lle/10.jpg), not otherwise mentioned in the sentence; or she could b e the lady on card XIIII (http://membres.multimania.fr/tarobat/me ... lle/14.jpg). But the person on card X is probably male; it is usually shown as a monarch, and they are usually male. Also, I imagine an original Italian "Dama" as "Dama Fama," corresponding to the "FAMA" on XIIII. Finally, the Vielart at XI should be desiring something further on in the sequence; that would rule out X (unless the cutter has made both its number and that of Force, IX, backwards, which is possible but unlikely). So I agree with Kaplan and others that the "DAMA" mentioned on the Ace of Cups is probably the lady of trump XIIII.

Reading the word after "DAME" as "QUY," in "who would let it be cried," and likewise the unambiguous "QUY" later as "qui" of "who would let him be hanged," it is she who would have the Vielart of XI denounced and hanged. The sentence itself does not seem to me to advocate his being denounced and hanged. "Holy Father, do me justice" is spoken by the author, i.e. Vieville. It is possible that he is protesting the action that the lady would take and appealing to God for a kinder verdict. Even if I am wrong, it is clear that the Vielart loves the Dame and that someone finds this reprehensible. Whether the author thinks it is really reprehensible, is another matter. He may be speaking ironically.

The word "VIELART" is interesting because it has some similarity both to "Vievil" and "viel art," old art. The "old art" could be tarot card-making. So perhaps Vievil or card-making thinks he or it should have fame and not ignominy, for its love of beauty and truth.

And there is another "viel art" (or even "vile art"): alchemy, condemned by many as a heresy; but perhaps Vievil wants to say that this condemnation is undeserved. Alverda (p. 38) finds a quote which he thinks alchemically connects the Vielart with the Dame:
"Il voile la lumiere pour la reveler, et ce double mouvement s'accomplit par le desir venusien (...)C'est pourquoi Venus est l'aimee de Saturne." (Le Zodiaque, M. Senard.)
Here the Old Man is Saturn, and the Dame is Venus. I don't know an alchemical allegory in which Saturn veils his llight in order to reveal it, for amorous purposes. There is, to be sure, the famous Emblem XLII from Maier's Atalanta Fugiens of an old man holding up a lantern so he can see the footsteps of a beautiful woman holding flowers and fruits. She is Nature, who will lead him to the elixir. But he is not portrayed as having amorous intentions toward her.

Image


He also does not veil his light. Whether the Vievil Vielart veils his lantern, I don't know.

Looking up Venus in Jung, whom I take as knowledgeable about alchemy, I see on p. 304 of Mysterium Coniunctionis,
Kunrath regards Venus as the anima vegetativa of sulphur...In the Arabic "Book of Krates" Venus is endowed with tincturing power... ..she holds the vessel from which quicksilver continually flows...
That last is particularly suggestive of the Vievil etc. Some people say that the flowing liquid in the Vievil is blue; I don't know that it matters.

There is also this (Jung p. 305):
Lastly, I would mention the king's daughter in the play in the Chymical Wedding, who was chosen as the bride but because of her coquetry was made captive by the King of the Moors. She agrees to be his concubine, and thus proves herself a regular meretrix. Rosencreutz's visit to the sleeping Venus shows that this two-faced goddess is somehow secretly connected with the opus.
The King of the Moors is of course black and thus representative of the black or saturnine stage. It also suggests the "veiled light" of Alverda's quote.

Jung also (footnote same page) quotes Dorn, who says,
"...you should direct your way to the south; so shall you obtain your desire in Cyprus, of which nothing more may be said."
Cyprus is of course the domain of Venus.

There is also Venus's beauty cream in Apuleius's "Tale of Cupid and Psyche," which Venus uses to renew her beauty. In the tale, she is running out and sends Psyche to Hades to fetch some from Persephone, with the priviso that she not try it herself. Needless to say, she does try a little, and it renders her comotose. But in the end, by arousing Cupid into action, it secures her immortality. I would expect that there was an alchemical interpretation of that episode, although I haven't read one.

The alchemist desires Venus and her elixir not only to increase life, but to restore his old vigor, i.e. to get his old powers of love back. The elixir, like a young bride, was sometimes seen as such a rejuvenator. But alas, Vieville's riddle might be saying (or Hooray, if Ross's reading is right), the young and vigorous ones only want him hanged.

I wish to emphasize, as Alverda does as well, that an alchemical reading for Vieville card XIIIi is only a subtext--a subtext at best, I would say, but one worth introducing here.

Re: Fame riddle

#65
About the two instances of QUY in the Vieville poem, I think they could be mocking "legalese". The word could stand for "qu'il".

From Recueil général des anciennes lois françaises: depuis l'an 420 jusqu'à la révolution de 1789, Volume 8

Nous avons Ordonné et Ordonnons par ces presentes, qu'il soit crié et publié par tous les lieux notables et acoustumez à faire criz et publicacions oudit bailliage de Meaulx, que aucun ne soit si hardy de prandre ou mectre aucunes monnoyes d'or ou d'argent quelles que elles soient...

C'est un mauvais homme; il est hérétique et larron ; nous voulons qu'il soit ars et pendu...

Re: Fame riddle

#66
hi,
for the moment I've only limited internet access.

My post reflects an older post from Marco.


hi Marco,
Marco wrote:I go back to older posts in this thread, but possibly I have missed something and I am repeating things that have already been written. About Folengo, I suggest taking into account Limerno's introduction to his last sonnet:

"I pray you to accept to hear one more which is (in my opinion) much less rough and trivial than the others I have already recited. I have been completely free in composing it, so that it contains the twenty-one trumps, adding to them Fame and the Fool"
I think, Limerno is one of his pseudonyms. From Huson's decription I see, that the whole is a dialog, and Limerno is a speaker.
I find this Tarotpedia translation:
http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Caos_Del_Triperuno
(I assume, you made it)

... :-) ... GREAT WORK

It deserves to be presented here:
LIMERNO: ... I pray you, my Triperuno, to lay down under the shadow of that tree, while I rehearse some verses with my lyre. Tonight I must recite them in front of the queen, and I have a lot to do in order to make pleasant the four sonnets she asked.
TRIPERUNO: This way of composing on someone else's request is hardly satisfying to those that do not take part in it. But please tell me, before I leave you, the subject of the four sonnets.
LIMERNO: I will tell you briefly. The lady is not the proper reason for them: yesterday Giuberto and Focilla, Falcone and Mirtella took me secretly to a room where, after they found the triumph playing-cards, divided the cards between them by chance. Each one told me which trumps he had received by chance, praying me to compose a sonnet about them.
TRIPERUNO: You might receive a much harder subject by chance, than by the choice of the poet.
LIMERNO: This reason of yours gives me a good excuse to be presented to intelligent people, if my verses will not be as easy as the nature of poetry requires. Now, let us see firstly the chance or fortune of Giuberto; after that, I will recite the corresponding sonnet, where you will be able to consider that the said triumphs, singularly assigned by chance to each sonnet, are named four times, as you can understand with the help of the major figures:

Justice, Angel, Devil, Fire, Love
"The leader of all wickedness is woman ; she is the cunning mistress of crime" - SEN [Seneca "Hippolytus" 559]

When I consider the fire of Love
that always burns me, I say to myself:
This is not an Angel from God, but the enemy
that Justice put out of heaven.

And someone adores it as an Angel,
calling his flames a “sweet entangle”.
I deny this, who falls in love with the Devil
never was a friend to Justice.

Loving a woman is the heat of a black spirit,
whose face looks in its eyes as an Angel,
but do not be deceived: it is a fraud, not Justice.

There can be no Justice, where the cruel
archer has placed his flames,
so that Satan looks like and Angel of light.

TRIPERUNO: This first one seems to me quite amusing, and not so difficult; but I doubt that the queen and the other women will appreciate it.
LIMERNO: Tell me why.
TRIPERUNO: The subject does not praise the gentle sex.
LIMERNO: Giuberto did not want a different statement from what you have heard. Now I come to the second one, which contains the chance of Focilla.

World, Star, Wheel, Strength, Temperance, Juggler
A good woman is a very rare animal.

Fortune in the world is like a Juggler,
who now rises someone, and than brings him down.
There is no Temperance in it, so it crushes
the strength of whoever was born under a bad Star.

Only a tempered, strong and beautiful
woman, whose splendour surpasses that of the Stars,
can make the unstable Wheel humble and low;
and she calls it to world a game of acorns.

She has always used her Strength
in a temperate way, so that she can make fun
of the World and of the chance of the Stars.

Fortune, with its carelessness, can well
use the Stars of the most extreme strength:
who can temper himself will stop it as well as the World.

TRIPERUNO: This other sonnet seems to me to be better than the first one: before I expected that it would not have been so, because I thought that the chance of the Juggler could only cause trouble to consorts. But it seems to me that it is much more fitting than the others.
LIMERNO: Every thing that endures hardness in its life, most of the times becomes excellent: in this way Focilla, a woman that we see is very prudent, was at first saddened by such lightness that happened to her; now that she see that it all turned in an increase of her honour, now is happy and goes jumping around. Now I turn to the very dark subject of the disordered triumphs of Falcone. He is gentler than all the others, so he should have had the best fortune.

Moon, Hanged-Man, Pope, Emperor, Papesse

Dear Europe, when will it happen that
that part of you, owned by the treacherous Turk,
will be brought back by the Pope or Emperor,
who have the Fortune of holding the keys in their hands?

Poor me! she is treacherous and untimely
and put in a woman's hand the higher honour (Fortune is made Papesse)
of Peter; she also keeps the Imperial anger
against the fleur-de-lis and not against the Moon.

If the pope were not a Papesse,
that Marcin keeps hanged by her foot,
I would see the Moon in the claws of the eagle.

But these popes and emperors that I have
make so that my Papesse wants to be
a Lunatic, and I want to hang myself.

TRIPERUNO: Dear master, in this sonnet you often play the mute.
LIMERNO: It was always valuable.
TRIPERUNO: What?
LIMERNO: Truth...
TRIPERUNO: To confess?
LIMERNO: On the contrary: to be silent.
TRIPERUNO: Why?
LIMERNO: To avoid hate.
TRIPERUNO: Hate would not be important, if it was not followed by persecution.
LIMERNO: So a bit for the mouth was invented.
TRIPERUNO: It is better to be a martyr than a confessor.
LIMERNO: Too true. But let us finally see Mirtella's sonnet, whose chance was the following:

Sun, Death, Time, Chariot, Empress, Fool
"As the builder most readily destroys the ship or the house which he has built, so Nature is the agent best fitted to give dissolution to her creature, man." – CIC. [Cicero, De Senectute, XX, 72]

The greatest folly under the Sun
is wasting Time waiting to enjoy your time:
Death, the Empress on its Chariot, is quick
to turn to dust human beings.

In a short time, the young peasant
collects on his chariot the violets together with manure:
it is a Fool who is afraid of the killing lightning
that wants to kill also Empresses.

Woman, if you wait while you are more beautiful
until the Sun of beauty grows old and dies,
you will rule on the Chariot of fools.

Enjoy, you fool, what are you waiting for? Enjoy the flower!
The Chariot of the Sun is running, and the black
Empress is ready to fill the graveyard.

TRIPERUNO: This seems to me more satisfying than the others, oh my master.
LIMERNO: I would have composed them less stiffly, if the distribution of the trumps had been under my control. I pray you to accept to hear one more which is (in my opinion) much less rough and trivial than the others I have already recited. I have been completely free in composing it, so that it contains the twenty-.one trumps, adding to them Fame and the Fool:

Love, under whose Empire many deeds
go without Time and without Fortune,
saw ugly and dark Death on a Chariot,
going between the people it took away from the World.

Death said: no Pope nor Papesse was ever won
by you. Do you call this Justice?
Love answered: Him who made the Sun and the Moon
defended them from my Strength.

You are a Fool, continued Love, my Fire,
that can appear as an Angel or as a Devil,
can be Tempered by those who live under my Star.

You are Empress of bodies, but although you
can Hang a heart, you can't kill it, and [you are] only
a name of high fame: you remain a Trifle.
That's fine.
Andrea Vitali, who presents the poem at ...
http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=199&lng=eng
.. with another translation of two of the sonnets, but without the dialog sequences outside the sonnets, translates the title with ...
Chaos del Tri per uno, ovvero dialogo delle Tre etadi (Chaos of Three for one, or dialogue of the three ages) (10)

and Footnote 10: 10 - Venice, 1546
... so somehow a later edition.

I'm interested to learn, what's around these 5 sonnets. I find this edition:
www.gutenberg.org/files/35799/35799-h/35799-h.htm
with a content page:
TEOFILO FOLENGO
OPERE ITALIANE
A CURA DI UMBERTO RENDA
VOLUME PRIMO

BARI, GIUS. LATERZA & FIGLITI, POGRAFI-EDITORI-LIBRAI 1911

II .... I don't know, what this "II" shall mean

CAOS DEL TRIPERUNO

INDICE

Dialogo de le tre etadi ... Andrea's second title, Venice 1546
Selva prima
Sestina li cui capiversi dicono quella sentenzia: «Concordantia — durant — cuncta — nature — federa»
De la puerizia ed aurea stagione
Selva seconda
Prefazione
La Carossa
La Matotta
Dialogo primo (Limerno e Merlino)
Lamento di bellezza
Centro di questo Caos, detto «laberinto»
Amore di Triperuno e Galanta
Dialogo secondo (Limerno, Triperuno e Fúlica) ... here are the Tarocchi poems included
La Asinaria — Dialogo terzo (Fúlica, Limerno e Triperuno)
Tumuli Galanthidis mustellae
Selva terza
Prefazione
Triperuno
Dialogo (Cristo e Triperuno)
Dissoluzione del Caos
Dialogo (Natura e Triperuno)
Paradiso terrestre

De aurea urna qua includitur Eucharistia
Mira duorum amicitia
De Georgio Anselmo
Tumulus Marci
A l'integerrimo signor Alberto da Carpo


I started to count:

0. Dialogo de le tre etadi ... Andrea's second title, Venice 1546
1. Selva prima
2. Sestina li cui capiversi dicono quella sentenzia: «Concordantia — durant — cuncta — nature — federa»
3. De la puerizia ed aurea stagione
4. Selva seconda
5. Prefazione
6. La Carossa
7. La Matotta
8. Dialogo primo (Limerno e Merlino).... in this chapter, as you will see, appears Fama Sol - twice
9. Lamento di bellezza
10. Centro di questo Caos, detto «laberinto»
11. Amore di Triperuno e Galanta
12. Dialogo secondo (Limerno, Triperuno e Fúlica) ... here are the Tarocchi poems included
13. La Asinaria — Dialogo terzo (Fúlica, Limerno e Triperuno)
14. Tumuli Galanthidis mustellae
15. Selva terza
16. Prefazione
17. Triperuno
18. Dialogo (Cristo e Triperuno)
19. Dissoluzione del Caos
20. Dialogo (Natura e Triperuno)
21. Paradiso terrestre

... the rest is addition or ...
(22. ?) De aurea urna qua includitur Eucharistia
Mira duorum amicitia
De Georgio Anselmo
Tumulus Marci
A l'integerrimo signor Alberto da Carpo

**********

What did Folengo state? Wasn't somewhere, that he said "21 trump, and I added the Fool and Fame" ("so that it contains the twenty-one trumps, adding to them Fame and the Fool" according Marco's translation)?

Alright, I made some analyses of the text to have an impression ...

... the result was, that I opened a new theme for the Foloengo text story as "a framed story". I'd to do it ... that's too big for the Fama Sol theme.

BTW: Fama Sol appears in the text in Element 8 "Dialogo Primo" with Limerno and Merlino
Limerno
..
..
Io dunque meritar puotei la entrata di questo santissimo giardino allora quando la fama sola d'una non pur bellissima ma prudentissima madonna mi cocque le medolle, lo cui bel nome voi ne' capoversi di questo succedente sonetto potreti conoscere, lo quale giá lo fido mio Falcone nel scorzo di quel frassino intagliando scrisse:

G loriosa madonna, il cui bel nome
I n capo de' miei versi porrò sempre,
V orrei pur io saper de quali tempre
S ian que' vostr'occhi neri ed auree chiome!
T rema ciascun in lor, mirando come
I vi sia la virtude, che distempre
N ostra natura e 'n ferro i cuori tempre,
A cciò piú di leggier lor tiri e dome.
D i calamita dunque se non sète,
I n voi di cotal pietra è forza almanco
V ivace sí, ch'ogni materia liga.
I o tragger vidi de' vostr'occhi al rete
N atura, Amor e 'l Sol di sua quadriga.
A ltra simile a voi chi vide unquanco?

LIMERNO

Mirabilissima è per certo di costei la beltade e cortesia, la cui fama sola (or che fa poi la presenzia?) puote di luntane contrade altrui ricondurre a vedere e contemplare la tanta lei vaghezza, la tanta lei graziosissima onestade. Laonde chiunque al primier assalto la vede, subitamente vien constretto a prorumpere in coteste simili parole:

Or non piú fama, or non piú 'l sparso grido
l'unica sua bellezza mi dichiara;
ché, mentre agli occhi nostri non fu avara,
vidila sí, che cosí ardendo i' grido:
— Per l'universo non che 'n questo lido
piú bella, accorta, pronta, onesta e rara
donna chi vide mai? quivi s'impara
nata beltá d'Amore ad esser nido.
— Però se questo e quello od altri l'ama,
maraviglia qual è? ma ben saria,
s'uom è che lei mirando non s'impetra!
Quel guardo pregno d'alta leggiadria,
quel dolce riso anco nel cuor mi chiama:
— Costei sola del ciel le grazie impetra!
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#67
Marco wrote,
About the two instances of QUY in the Vieville poem, I think they could be mocking "legalese". The word could stand for "qu'il".
Yes, I see. That would justify Ross's translation. Thanks again.

Re: Fame riddle

#68
Not sure that Dama cannot be readily dismissed as Dama Fortuna. Not sure about the old man, but I should think fools and 'bagats' (gamester, player, cheat, et al) are generally lovers of fortune than of temperance? * The cards are 'this dame' of the gambler's 'fortune' perhaps?

But dame-fame/femme was a common couple of old french poetry. . .

SteveM

*Lovers of fortune, such as gamblers, cheats and fools, spend on vanities and pleasure,immediate gratifications, and do not provide for one's old age (render old age justice)? Put something aside for old age and rainy days, do not waste all you have on these cards (dame fortuna) . . . ?
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Fame riddle

#69
hi,

I noted some early dates of Tarot development in Switzerland

Image


Nidwalden (1572, 1588, 1620 and then variously till 18th century) and Lucerne (1593 - Lucerne is 20 km from Nidwalden) are the earliest dates of "positive" Tarot activities.

Geneve follows (1609, 1615, 1617 and 1635) with prohibitions (so "negative") and a prohibition is also recorded for Zürich (1650).

Then I found a list in the Tarot-Rules book of Dummett/McLeod. This contained rätoromanische names for Tarot cards. Rätoromanisch is a language. It is spoken in the region designed as "rätoromanisch" on the map. Other colors at the design a dominance of German, French and of Italian spoken in Switzerland.

The name of the card 14 ... usually Temperance ... is given with an equivalent for "Angel". This remembered me on the Fama Sol problem.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#70
The figure Temperance with an hour glass (and later with a mechanical clock) ...

Image


... which appears in the discussion of the hermit with hour glass ...
forum.tarothistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=392&p=12444#p12444
... might be also of interest in the "Fama riddle".
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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