Re: Fame riddle

#161
mikeh wrote:But whether the Fool's animal could possibly be such a small creature, as opposed to a cat (or the Fool such a giant), I don't know.
Having done a search I see Kaplan describes it as a small lion ---

In relation to size, perhaps there is a political allusion, a sort of David and Goliath between Leo Belgicus (the netherlands et al) and -- some enemy represented by the Fool? (Spain?) The Fool, Spain (the Spanish Captain) has been chased off ?? Who them is the final Trump - the Fool or the Lion?

The Fool certainly seems something of a Giant is some of the early painted decks ---

Also:

"Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed."

The Lion of Judah (Christ) has triumphed over those who denied God ( the fool says in his heart, there is no God )
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Fame riddle

#162
SteveM wrote:
mikeh wrote:But whether the Fool's animal could possibly be such a small creature, as opposed to a cat (or the Fool such a giant), I don't know.
Having done a search I see Kaplan describes it as a small lion ---

In relation to size, perhaps there is a political allusion, a sort of David and Goliath between Leo Belgicus (the netherlands et al) and -- some enemy represented by the Fool? (Spain?) The Fool, Spain (the Spanish Captain) has been chased off ?? Who them is the final Trump - the Fool or the Lion?

The Fool certainly seems something of a Giant is some of the early painted decks ---

Also:

"Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed."

The Lion of Judah (Christ) has triumphed over those who denied God ( the fool says in his heart, there is no God )
I assume, that you speak of the Adam C. Hautot deck. As far I remember, there were two decks, one is the Belgian style WITH Spanish captain ... Kaplan II, p. 320+323. The other I don't find in the moment, but this was normal Tarot (as far I remember)
You seem to see this other deck. Do you have the Kaplan page number? Kaplan doesn't have Hautot in the index.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#163
I didn't know of two types (are you confusing him with Heri, who did both a Tarot de Marseille & a TdB?) -- I speak of the version with Spanish Captain & Bacus & Fou@XXII :




Image
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Fame riddle

#164
Thank you, this might have been my error.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Netherlands
In 1714 the political situation had changed.
During the War of the Spanish Succession, in 1706 the Habsburg Netherlands became an Anglo-Dutch condominium for the remainder of the conflict.[2] By the peace treaties of Utrecht and Rastatt in 1713/14 ending the war, the Southern Netherlands fell back to the Austrian Habsburg Monarchy forming the Austrian Netherlands.
Rouen seems to have had a very special state. During 16th century Rouen had a lot of Calvinists, similar to the close Le Havre, which had a lot of Huguenots.

Image


Rouen might have gotten special card production rights as a border city for its role in the export to other countries. If they delivered to the Austrian Netherlands, they could even produce political propaganda on the cards.

In my Vieville research I detected also a "de la Vieville family" connected to Rouen. I'm not sure if this was just a branch of the family, which was active once in the Rethelois. Prominent members of the Rouen family:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Laur ... C3%A9ville
.... a younger brother of him: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Phil ... C3%A9ville
... they are related to the location Freneuse (half way between Paris and Rouen, also located at the Seine).

I persecuted recently dogs and cats at playing cards with Fool connections ...
viewtopic.php?f=23&p=19304#p19052
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#165
Huck wrote: In my Vieville research I detected also a "de la Vieville family" connected to Rouen.
Yes, I came across the two brothers Vieville born in Rouen too, both of whom had books published in Bruxelles -

here is one comparing Italian and French music:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k118173g/f1.image

Letter of his brother, published in Orleans

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6 ... r=Vieville
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Fame riddle

#166
I detected also this line ..

http://fabpedigree.com/s012/f053832.htm

A Philipp de la Vieville married a bastard daughter of ...
Philippe de BOURGOGNE (Duke) of BRABANT & Limburg
Born: 1404 Died: 1430
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_I,_Duke_of_Brabant
Philip I, Duke of Brabant, also known as Philip of Saint Pol (25 July 1404 – Leuven, 4 August 1430), younger son of Antoine, Duke of Brabant and Jeanne of Saint-Pol, succeeded his brother John as Duke of Brabant in 1427.[1] He had already been given Saint-Pol and Ligny as an appanage on the death of his grandfather Waleran III in 1415 at the Battle of Agincourt.
He commanded the Burgundian forces occupying Paris in 1419, but he returned to Brabant in 1420, where the populace complained of his brother's misadministration. He was declared ruwaard (regent) of Brabant. In 1421, he was reconciled with his brother, and resigned the regency. The citizens were pacified by John's "Nieuw Regiment" in 1422.
During his own reign, Philip was forced to grant concessions to the nobility in 1428. Wary of the rise of his cousin and heir Philip the Good in the Hook and Cod wars, he sought a marital alliance with Louis II of Anjou against Burgundy, marrying his daughter Yolande.
Because this marriage produced no children, his death in 1430 placed Brabant in the hands of his cousin Philip the Good, the next heir, whilst Saint-Pol and Ligny went to his great-aunt Joan, by proximity of blood.[2] His wife was placed in the guardianship of Philip the Good, until she remarried in 1431 with Francis I, Duke of Brittany.
Philipp de la Vieville owned something close to the Ocean at the nowadays Belgian side (close to the French border). He was "Seigneur de MAMEZ & d'Anvin et de Watou". But I can't see a connection to the other family.

However ...
His wife was placed in the guardianship of Philip the Good, until she remarried in 1431 with Francis I, Duke of Brittany.
There's a connection to Brittany. She was Yolande, sister of Renee d'Anjou. Perhaps she brought related persons of the region also to Brittany.

I'm puzzled ... Johan Coskaer, owner of Farbus (in Britanny, I would assume), is the ancestor of the big Vieuville-line. But: Searching for Farbus I get this result.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farbus
Farbus is not in Britanny, but somehow in the Vieville region. About 150 km NW from Rethel.
https://www.google.de/maps/place/62580+ ... 4d2.824862

I get this ...
Sons of Philipp the Good ... A son married the heiress of Pierre de la Vieville in 1459.
(unehelich, Mutter Jeanne de Presle de Lizy, Tochter von Louis Raoul, Seigneur de Lizy, und Jeanne de Lizy) Anton Bastard von Burgund (Antoine Bâtard de Bourgogne), genannt Le Grand Bâtard, * 1421, † 5. Mai 1504, Melun Januar 1485 französische Legitimation, 1452 Herr zu Beveren, Crèvecœur und Vassy, 1464 Graf von La Roche, 1478 Graf von Grandpré, Seigneur de Bapaume, de Sainte-Menehould, de Passy, de Passavant, de Château-Thierry, de Steenberghe et de Châtillon-sur-Marne, Seigneur d‘Arleux, de Chocques, de Beuvry et de Houdain, 1470 Houtvester[2] von Holland, Ritter des Ordens vom Goldenen Vlies, bestattet in Tournehem;
∞ 26. Juni 1459 (oder vor 1454) in Brüssel Jeanne Bonne Marie de La Viefville, Vicomtesse d’Aire, Dame de La Viéville, de Nédon, de Tournehem et de La Fosse,
Erbtochter von Pierre de La Viefville, Vicomte d’Aire und Isabeau de la Preure
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stammlist ... es_Burgund

I imagine (just as a working hypothesis), that the title "de la Vieville" became free (no male successor once), and that it wandered to Johan Coskaer, who was for unknown reasons in Britanny (perhaps cause he accompanied Yolande), but still had some possession in the Vieville region.

This was the man, that the Dame de la Vieville married in 1459:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Bastard_von_Burgund
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony,_ ... f_Burgundy

Well ... must be studied a little bit. Maybe Viefville means NOT Vieville.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#167
Although he is too late, there is a paper manufacture with paper making factories in Marseille and throughout provence in the 18th century named Vieville - in 1790 he publishes in France, England, the netherlands a method/dye he has discovered for producing a blue paper 'as good as that from Holland' --

One wonders if a paper manufacturer would not possibly be a descendant of our card-maker (in 17th century many cardmakers, including for example the Hautot of Rouen, started of as makers of taperstries de papier (paper wall-hangings, ie, wallpaper, the printing techniques of which were easily adapted to printing cards, which the Hautot seemed to have gone into when the market for Rouen wallpaper dropped)

Here is one of the letters of Monsier de la Vieville, announcing his discovery for making blue paper, the dye for which can be obtained by him at his address in Marseille:

https://books.google.com.tr/books?id=H- ... ur&f=false
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Fame riddle

#168
This was the heraldry of Charles I de la Vieville (or Vieuville)

Image


This is given as a heraldry of Jeanne Viefville (married 1459) and other Viefvilles ...

Image


... close enough.

Confirmation about a relationship between both branches, if called de la Viefville or de la Vieuville or de la Vieville, comes from a Dutch dictionary ...

Groot algemeen woorden-boek, zo historisch, geografisch, genealogisch, als oordeelkundig; behelzenden het voornaamste dat vervat is in de woorden-boeken van Morery, Bayle, Buddeus, enz, Band 10
David van Hoogstraten
Brunel, Wetsteins, 1733
https://books.google.de/books?id=22tEAA ... ga&f=false

Image

Image


Image


And this is the sun ...

Image


... the motto is identified as that of Louis XIV.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nec_pluribus_impar
... said to be arranged in 1658.
Likely the regiment Viefville was not the only one, which used the picture. But it was the cavalerie ...



... and there is the horse of Jacques Vieville.

***************

I remember these discussions ...

Image

Cary-Sheet mix
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=402&start=70#p15585

---

Image


Image

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=402&start=50#p15514
http://iconographic.warburg.sas.ac.uk/v ... ecord=6686

**************

But perhaps one should first attempt to understand the role of the Vieville or Vieuville clan around 1650 better.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#169
SteveM wrote:
mikeh wrote:
The Fool certainly seems something of a Giant is some of the early painted decks ---
Per Douglas Lackey and his research into the influences on Giotto's virtues/vices at the Scrovegni chapel, in this case the exterior reliefs on Notre Dame:
Some of the virtues at Notre Dame are not easily identified, and
the problems of identification are not helped by the fact that the
sculptures were knocked down several times over the centuries, and
put back perhaps not in their original positions. As best as I can
determine the six virtues to the left of the door are (right to left)
Faith, Hope, Charity, Chastity, Prudence, and Humility, and the six
virtues to the right (left to right) of the door are Fortitude, Patience,
Nobility, Concord, Obedience, and Loyalty.

At first sight, these sculptures seem to anticipate Giotto. The
Notre Dame series contains all three of the theological virtues and
perhaps three of the four cardinal virtues, (if we count Chastity as
Temperance). So we have six of Giotto’s seven. In several cases
(e.g., Faith, Hope, Charity) the virtues has been independently
selected for inclusion, and the opposites defined in reference to them,
just as Giotto did. Furthermore, if we look at the scenes beneath
Faith, Hope, and Prudence we find images that are quite similar to
Giotto‘s. In the lunette below Faith, there is a man praying to an idol;
below Hope, there is a scene of a suicide; below Prudence, a giant
wandering in the woods
: these images are close to Giotto’s images of
Infidelity, Desperatio, and Stultitia (D. Lackey, "GIOTTO IN PADUA:
A NEW GEOGRAPHY OF THE HUMAN SOUL," The Journal of Ethics (2005) 9: 551–572, 564
Image

Re: Fame riddle

#170
Excellentium familiarum in Gallia genealogiae
Jacob Wilhelm Imhof
1687
https://books.google.de/books?id=-d8-AA ... le&f=false

... has a genealogical table of the Viefville family, difficult to read. In the accompanying Latin text (265-267) further details are given. It seems, that this text has influenced the Dutch article.

Artois

Image

picture presents state of 15th century

Johannes van Viefville, was "stadhouder van Artois", likely a sort of gouverneur and in political matters the most important man of the region. He had two sons and these both manifested 2 different genealogical lines ... one in Burgundy (Gauninius) and the other in France (Rogerius).
History

Originally a feudal county itself, Artois was annexed by the county of Flanders. It came to France in 1180 as a dowry of a Flemish princess, Isabelle of Hainaut, and was again made a separate county in 1237 for Robert, a grandson of Isabelle. Through inheritance, Artois came under the rule of the dukes of Burgundy in 1384. At the death of the fourth duke, Charles the Bold, Artois was inherited by the Habsburgs [1477] and passed to the dynasty's Spanish line. After the religious revolts of 1566 in the Netherlands, Artois briefly entered the Dutch Revolt in 1576, participating in the Pacification of Ghent until it formed the Union of Atrecht in 1579.
After the Union of Atrecht, Artois and Hainaut (Dutch: Henegouwen) reached a separate agreement with Philip II. Artois remained with the Spanish Netherlands until it was conquered by the French during the Thirty Years War [1640]. The annexation was acknowledged during the Treaty of the Pyrenees in 1659, and it became a French province. Artois had already been largely French-speaking, but it was part of the Southern Netherlands until the French annexation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artois

One key scene of 1477 is this ...
Anthony, bastard of Burgundy or "Le grand bâtard"
... born as son of Philippe the good in 1421 and so much older than Charles the bold of Burgundy (* 1433), somehow the second important man in the state of Burgundy since 1467.
In 1476–1477, he fought alongside Charles the Bold at the three great battles of Grandson, Murten and Nancy, and was taken hostage at the end of the latter by René II, Duke of Lorraine, and delivered to the King of France, who was anxious that Burgundy should never again rebel. But Antoine had no interest in making trouble, and he offered Louis his services to help stabilize the precarious political situation. He was instrumental in arranging the marriage of Duchess Mary, his niece and only child and successor of Charles the Bold, to Maximilian of Austria.

Anthony was married to the heiress of the Viefville possessions in Burgundy.

The French line became of importance, finally reaching the state of 1650-53, which is interesting for the production of the Vieville Tarot.

******************

Charles I de la Vieuville

... has a wikipedia article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_La_Vieuville
Charles I. Coskaer, marquis and later duc de La Vieuville (1582-9 January 1653)[1] was an important French noble and Superintendent of Finances of France from 1623 to 1624[2] and once again from 1651 to 1653 .[3]

He descended from the dynasty of the seigneurs of La Vieuville and was the son of Robert, seigneur de La Vieuville.[4] Being a grandnephew to a finance minister of both Henry III and Henry IV he had good connections at court.[5] He started his career being Captain of the Garde Écossaise,[6] where he quickly rose to favour of the king, so that already in 1619 he became a knight of the king's orders.[7] As the year 1623 passed, the king (who always sought an effective model of governance) found virtually all his major advisors (like Brûlart and Puysieux) and his previous superintendent, Henri de Schomberg, ineffective. This resulted partly because of an inclination towards Spain, the deadly enemy of France, by some of the ministers, as well as the inability of the military man Schomberg of governing the finances.[8] This vacuum of power was filled by the trusted captain of the king's guards. During the years he was superintendent, and due to the fact that he was the king's only advisor, he had a very important role at the French court. His views went quite well with Louis XIII's bon français views. It was him who advised the king to side with the Dutch and who had the idea to interfere directly in the Bündner Wirren.[9] Yet afterwards he didn't prove to fulfill quite what Louis XIII expected and Louis XIII became very disappointed with him. This was due to the fact that La Vieuville had grown very arrogant and incompetent and because members of his family were very corrupt.[10] Another factor was that Cardinal Richelieu who had just entered the Royal Council, had previously published various pamphlets and spread several rumours against his rival La Vieuville, in order to become the king's advisor himself.[11] Finally, he should have been executed, yet he fled from France to the Spanish Netherlands.[12] Later in Louis XIII's reign he was pardoned and returned to France, eventually becoming superintendent once more during Louis XIV's early reign.[13]
At the 26. December 1651 the regions Nogent Artoud-sur-Marne and St. Martin d'Ablois were contracted to build the new duchy Vieuville to honor Charles I de la Vieuville.
... according ...
Grosses vollständiges Universal Lexicon aller Wissenschaften und Künste, welche bisshero durch menschlichen Verstand und Witz erfunden und verbessert worden, Band 48 (1746)
https://books.google.de/books?id=0_xfAA ... le&f=false

The both regions are located between Paris and Reims.
Definitely this was a reason for celebration in the Vieuville family.

Description of the Vieuville scandal in 1623/24, which Charles de la Vieuville led to prison with an escape one year later ...
The Life of Marie de Medicis, Queen of France
Julia Pardoe
Cambridge University Press, 28.10.2010 - 622 Seiten
https://books.google.de/books?id=fzhcZb ... 20&f=false
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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