Maybe not but this notion of Fame of man after Death was in Chivalry 's idealsHuck wrote:Can anyone imagine, that Vievil spoke Italian?
https://books.google.fr/books?id=-ovXAL ... ma&f=false
Maybe not but this notion of Fame of man after Death was in Chivalry 's idealsHuck wrote:Can anyone imagine, that Vievil spoke Italian?
He needn't not, of course. But if he didn't know Italian, then it makes not sense to explain his Fama Sol with Italian termini.SteveM wrote:Who knows? And why did he need to know Italian?Huck wrote:Can anyone imagine, that Vievil spoke Italian?
ps: Juvenal wrote in Latin, not Italian ;)
Sorry, forget to add the name of the translator, a certain Michel de Marolles.SteveM wrote: Adioustes-y l'oyseau qui s'éleve sur le haut d'un Sceptre d'yvoire : & n'y oublie pas les Joueurs de cornets, une longue suitte de gens officieux qui marchent devant le char de Triomphe, & les Citoyens vestus de blanc, qui tiennent les renés des cheuaux, & que l'interest & la table ont rendus ses Amis.
Again, how do we know it is his, Alciato attests to Fama over a century prior, which for certain had no links with some future Sun King - the origins of the pattern followed by Vieville may well have been Italian --He needn't not, of course. But if he didn't know Italian, then it makes not sense to explain his Fama Sol with Italian termini.
Mundus habet primas, croceas dein Angelus alis:SteveM wrote: Again, how do we know it is his, Alciato attests to Fama over a century prior, which for certain had no links with some future Sun King - the origins of the pattern followed by Vieville may well have been Italian --
And the notion of Fama living on after death was a commonplace, not a notion confined to the Italians -
And he might not be the first, and Alciato provides some evidence of a prior tradition to which the Vievil may have some connection -- the Vieville is one of only three decks from the 17th century -- the paucity of evidence does not stop us from speculating that Vieville is not the unique originator of the pattern, that he worked from an earlier pattern --Huck wrote:
Vievil spoke of Fama Sol for this position. This became a Belgian tradition later, as it seems. Vievil might be the first (and we've no evidence, that this was copied early by others).
Indeed, further indication of a foreign, possibly Italian tradition: Where it seems to have been more common, as a poetic convention of earlier times at least.huck wrote: Fama Sol was not a common expression, especially not in France ... if one can trust books.google.com.
OK, but I was dealing with the particular choice of inscription, "Fama", and that particular card, with the Temperance lady. It seems to me it has to mean "glory", in the sense attainable by anyone, eternal glory, i.e. at least the same word, if not the same meaning, as Petrarch. If earthly glory were meant, what is the connection to the Temperance lady?Mikeh
Since, we have worked with Steve hypothesis and finally we got to the conclusion that :
Dame as Fortune X,
Fama Sol as Temperance XIIII : "the only one card with inscription".
Death XIII "the only one card without a name"
Huck does nor seem in total opposition with this ...
"Fama Volat" appeared in Minchiate in Florence, so in Italy. The Tarocchi appeared in Italy. Fama was used by Petrarca in Italy. Fama at position 14 of the Tarocchi cards appeared in the poem of Alciato, also in Italy.SteveM wrote: Indeed, further indication of a foreign, possibly Italian tradition: Where it seems to have been more common, as a poetic convention of earlier times at least.
https://books.google.de/books?id=0ohnAA ... 22&f=falseIch Fama sol aller Welt heut erzehlen wie selbst die Sterne verdoppeln die Macht ...
There once was Copernicus and then came Galileo and both had the idea, that not the Earth, but the Sun was the middle of the world. The church didn't like that. Galileo died in 1642, more or less in prison. After the end of the 30-years-war it became obvious, that Copernicus and Galileo had a good idea. 1653: The young French king Louis celebrated himself as a sun god in a ballet, which lasted 13 hours. This was the time of the Vievil deck.I do not know what "solar fame" could mean. I do not know that expression, even in a 16th-17th century context.
Yep -- all good indications of an Italian influence or source for this particular image (it may not be the Vieville represents a complete original pattern, but may be a mix of sources that appealed to the designer - the anonymous Paris, which appears related somehow in that it appears in the same region (Paris) has same style back and similar method of production, also appears to be a mixed bag of Spanish, German & Italian sources) --Huck wrote:"Fama Volat" appeared in Minchiate in Florence, so in Italy. The Tarocchi appeared in Italy. Fama was used by Petrarca in Italy. Fama at position 14 of the Tarocchi cards appeared in the poem of Alciato, also in Italy.SteveM wrote: Indeed, further indication of a foreign, possibly Italian tradition: Where it seems to have been more common, as a poetic convention of earlier times at least.
We have only three decks from the 17th century, such paucity of evidence leaves us unable to make such giant conclusions - survival does not equate to 'first appears' - the design at least has traces of and motifs common to older known patterns, Fama is one such trace that may lead us to back to Italian sources for this image (especially appearing in a phrase that makes sense in Italian, but not in French) -"Fama Sol" appeared on Tarocchi cards at position 14 in Northern France and in Belgium. At least we've no evidence for a use elsewhere.
We do not know what was addressed in the French/Belgian use, which is why we make these speculations - stating your own speculations as if they are fact does not, in fact, make them so -- elsewhere I have looked at possible links between the Belgian pattern and the society of Dutch artists in Rome, or at least the appeal the design of the pack would have to such -- speculating that the family of cards Vieville/Hautot to Belgian gets changes made to it post 1720 when the Pope banned the society of Dutch artists in Rome (whose Patron deity was Bachus - thus the change of from Pope, who banned them, to Bacus)"Fama" and "sol" appeared also in Italian poetry, but when sol meant "alone" and "only" and not the "sun", it was not the Fama, that was addressed in the French/Belgian use of "Fama Sol" on a Tarocchi card.
So? You think then Germany is a possible source and it means 'Fame Shall'" --- shall what ?.. is ALSO not Fama Sol in Germany, but means "Me, Fama, shall today tell all world, how even the stars double their power"
old German "sol" = modern German "soll" and English "shall"