Huck wrote:Can anyone imagine, that Vievil spoke Italian?

Maybe not but this notion of Fame of man after Death was in Chivalry 's ideals
https://books.google.fr/books?id=-ovXAL ... ma&f=false

SteveM wrote:

Huck wrote:Can anyone imagine, that Vievil spoke Italian?

Who knows? And why did he need to know Italian?

ps: Juvenal wrote in Latin, not Italian ;)

He needn't not, of course. But if he didn't know Italian, then it makes not sense to explain his Fama Sol with Italian termini.

SteveM wrote: Adioustes-y l'oyseau qui s'éleve sur le haut d'un Sceptre d'yvoire : & n'y oublie pas les Joueurs de cornets, une longue suitte de gens officieux qui marchent devant le char de Triomphe, & les Citoyens vestus de blanc, qui tiennent les renés des cheuaux, & que l'interest & la table ont rendus ses Amis.

Sorry, forget to add the name of the translator, a certain Michel de Marolles.

Adioustes-y l'oyseau qui s'éleve sur le haut d'un Sceptre d'yvoire
Add to it the bird which rises on the top of a scepter of ivory

He needn't not, of course. But if he didn't know Italian, then it makes not sense to explain his Fama Sol with Italian termini.

Again, how do we know it is his, Alciato attests to Fama over a century prior, which for certain had no links with some future Sun King - the origins of the pattern followed by Vieville may well have been Italian --

And the notion of Fama living on after death was a commonplace, not a notion confined to the Italians -

SteveM wrote: Again, how do we know it is his, Alciato attests to Fama over a century prior, which for certain had no links with some future Sun King - the origins of the pattern followed by Vieville may well have been Italian --

And the notion of Fama living on after death was a commonplace, not a notion confined to the Italians -

Mundus habet primas, croceas dein Angelus alis:
Tum Phoebus, luna, & stellæ, cum fulmine dæmon:
Fama necem, Crux ante senem, fortuna quadrigas:
Cedit amor forti & justo: regemque sacerdos,
Flaminicam regina præit que is campo propinat
Omnibus: extremo stultus discernitur actu.

Alciato spoke of Fama at position 14, and this connections might go back to the times of the 5x14 decks.

Vievil spoke of Fama Sol for this position. This became a Belgian tradition later, as it seems. Vievil might be the first (and we've no evidence, that this was copied early by others). Fama Sol was not a common expression, especially not in France ... if one can trust books.google.com.

Vievil writes it even wrong sided, perhaps with intention, perhaps to cause curiosity about it.

*********
France came later with the Petrarca editions, and the pictures had often a focus on death as prisoner of Fame.

Huck wrote:
Vievil spoke of Fama Sol for this position. This became a Belgian tradition later, as it seems. Vievil might be the first (and we've no evidence, that this was copied early by others).

And he might not be the first, and Alciato provides some evidence of a prior tradition to which the Vievil may have some connection -- the Vieville is one of only three decks from the 17th century -- the paucity of evidence does not stop us from speculating that Vieville is not the unique originator of the pattern, that he worked from an earlier pattern --

huck wrote: Fama Sol was not a common expression, especially not in France ... if one can trust books.google.com.

Indeed, further indication of a foreign, possibly Italian tradition: Where it seems to have been more common, as a poetic convention of earlier times at least.

Alain wrote,

Mikeh

Since, we have worked with Steve hypothesis and finally we got to the conclusion that :
Dame as Fortune X,
Fama Sol as Temperance XIIII : "the only one card with inscription".
Death XIII "the only one card without a name"

Huck does nor seem in total opposition with this ...

OK, but I was dealing with the particular choice of inscription, "Fama", and that particular card, with the Temperance lady. It seems to me it has to mean "glory", in the sense attainable by anyone, eternal glory, i.e. at least the same word, if not the same meaning, as Petrarch. If earthly glory were meant, what is the connection to the Temperance lady?


Even after death, glory is not a sure thing; it depends on one's conduct in Purgatory. Conceivably, one could remain in Purgatory forever. (Well, I don't know the fine points of doctrine here, as to whether God's mercy or the end of his patience would intervene first.)

I do not know what "solar fame" could mean. I do not know that expression, even in a 16th-17th century context.

Yes - the two types of Fame seem also to be distinguished by the examples of Boairdo and Sforza -

Boiardo is worldly fame achieved by being a great warrior - which may survive death, but nonetheless is subject to fade over time; whereas Sforza speaks of only fame that is hatched / born of virtue as being immortal: Boaidos's Fama is Fame that triumphs over death but is itself trumped by Time; Sforza's Fama born of virtue has its place in Eternity, and so more akin to 'Glory' - which the conflation of Fama with a Virtue (temperance) would seem more akin too --

Yes, nice, Steve. I had missed your citation of the Alessandro Sforza poem, at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=747&start=120#p19321, as well as the Boiardo earlier.

If fama = eternal glory, what is "eternal glory alone"? It is not the same as virtue alone. It is indeed "hatched" from virtue but virtue alone is insufficient to defeat death, it takes the sacraments as well. That much was common knowledge. So I think Temperance can stand for virtue--in the sense, perhaps, that all virtues are means between extremes, the extremes being the contents, before mixing, of the high and low cups; but the Eucharist has also to be implied.

Then there is the question, how does Temperance relate to worldly fame? Is worldly fame "hatched from virtue" as well? I would think that "virtue" in some sense is required, but perhaps more broadly than moral virtue, more like that Roman virtu, = power. If so, Temperance would not seem especially an aspect of worldly fame.

Added later: the lady pours water (blue) into a jug of wine (red) with her right hand: eternal glory. With her left she holds a baton with wings: worldly glory.

SteveM wrote: Indeed, further indication of a foreign, possibly Italian tradition: Where it seems to have been more common, as a poetic convention of earlier times at least.

"Fama Volat" appeared in Minchiate in Florence, so in Italy. The Tarocchi appeared in Italy. Fama was used by Petrarca in Italy. Fama at position 14 of the Tarocchi cards appeared in the poem of Alciato, also in Italy.

"Fama Sol" appeared on Tarocchi cards at position 14 in Northern France and in Belgium. At least we've no evidence for a use elsewhere.

"Fama" and "sol" appeared also in Italian poetry, but when sol meant "alone" and "only" and not the "sun", it was not the Fama, that was addressed in the French/Belgian use of "Fama Sol" on a Tarocchi card.

Ich Fama sol aller Welt heut erzehlen wie selbst die Sterne verdoppeln die Macht ...

https://books.google.de/books?id=0ohnAA ... 22&f=false

.. is ALSO not Fama Sol in Germany, but means "Me, Fama, shall today tell all world, how even the stars double their power"
old German "sol" = modern German "soll" and English "shall"

MikeH,

I do not know what "solar fame" could mean. I do not know that expression, even in a 16th-17th century context.

There once was Copernicus and then came Galileo and both had the idea, that not the Earth, but the Sun was the middle of the world. The church didn't like that. Galileo died in 1642, more or less in prison. After the end of the 30-years-war it became obvious, that Copernicus and Galileo had a good idea. 1653: The young French king Louis celebrated himself as a sun god in a ballet, which lasted 13 hours. This was the time of the Vievil deck.

Huck wrote:

SteveM wrote: Indeed, further indication of a foreign, possibly Italian tradition: Where it seems to have been more common, as a poetic convention of earlier times at least.

"Fama Volat" appeared in Minchiate in Florence, so in Italy. The Tarocchi appeared in Italy. Fama was used by Petrarca in Italy. Fama at position 14 of the Tarocchi cards appeared in the poem of Alciato, also in Italy.

Yep -- all good indications of an Italian influence or source for this particular image (it may not be the Vieville represents a complete original pattern, but may be a mix of sources that appealed to the designer - the anonymous Paris, which appears related somehow in that it appears in the same region (Paris) has same style back and similar method of production, also appears to be a mixed bag of Spanish, German & Italian sources) --

"Fama Sol" appeared on Tarocchi cards at position 14 in Northern France and in Belgium. At least we've no evidence for a use elsewhere.

We have only three decks from the 17th century, such paucity of evidence leaves us unable to make such giant conclusions - survival does not equate to 'first appears' - the design at least has traces of and motifs common to older known patterns, Fama is one such trace that may lead us to back to Italian sources for this image (especially appearing in a phrase that makes sense in Italian, but not in French) -

"Fama" and "sol" appeared also in Italian poetry, but when sol meant "alone" and "only" and not the "sun", it was not the Fama, that was addressed in the French/Belgian use of "Fama Sol" on a Tarocchi card.

We do not know what was addressed in the French/Belgian use, which is why we make these speculations - stating your own speculations as if they are fact does not, in fact, make them so -- elsewhere I have looked at possible links between the Belgian pattern and the society of Dutch artists in Rome, or at least the appeal the design of the pack would have to such -- speculating that the family of cards Vieville/Hautot to Belgian gets changes made to it post 1720 when the Pope banned the society of Dutch artists in Rome (whose Patron deity was Bachus - thus the change of from Pope, who banned them, to Bacus)

.. is ALSO not Fama Sol in Germany, but means "Me, Fama, shall today tell all world, how even the stars double their power"
old German "sol" = modern German "soll" and English "shall"

So? You think then Germany is a possible source and it means 'Fame Shall'" --- shall what ?