Re: Fame riddle

121
SteveM wrote:
Huck wrote:I didn't understand your discussion, but ... if Merlin interpreted, that "Dame" means "Fortune", it means only, that Merlin interpreted Dame as Fortune and not, that Dame is or was Fortune for Vievil.
From my understanding of the 'poem', Dame Fortune is more likely than Temperance/Fama:

As I read it the Dame is decried at the beginning and damned at the end, while it is easy to see that Fortune may be decried and damned (inasmuch, at least, as she damns), why should Temperance/Fama be decried and damned?

'crie a son de trompe' - shouted to the sound of trumpets = decried, denounced; the Dame who is decried to all, by the pope, popesse, etc - is to be hanged and carted off to the devil/hell - and I suppose the vile life of Jack (Jaques vie vil), the crazy old man and card-maker, and all her other lovers, may be inferred to be damned along with her --

It also more logical, that a crazy old man, a card-maker, a gamester, be a lover of Fortune than of Temperance:
I find this interpretation of Steve quite plausible .
"Saint-Père, fais-moi justice de ce vieillard, mat et bagat amoureux de cette dame qui soit crier à son de trompe à tout le monde, par le pape, la popesse, l'empereur..."

Holy father, render me justice for this old man/art, fool and gamester in love with this lady who is trumpeted to all the world, by the pope, the popesse, the emperor...

My understanding in adequation with Steve interpretation of Dame = Fortuna X as suggested by Merlin
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=747&start=110#p19301

NB :
Lady as Merlin noted wouldbe Fortuna X.
Nevertheless, this does not resolves another enigma.
The FAMA SOL of Viéville's TEMPERANCE IIIIX
Topic still at work on this question : I offered the "corne d'abondance" of Tyché as suggestion
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=747&start=110#p19306
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: Fame riddle

122
"Dame Fortune" has 131.000 Google results and is a literary figure in 14th century (perhaps also later)

"Dame France" has 212.000 Google results and is a literary figure in 15th century (perhaps also later), but a lot of these Google results react on "Notre Dame, France"

Dame Fortune has a wiki article, Dame France not.

Dame Fortune has 17 results in books of 17th century (according books.google.com)
Dame France has 6 results in books of 17th century (according books.google.com)

***************

We have the case, that the Poilly Minchiate (made around a similar time, c. 1658) has various virtues and also Prudence and Renommee and Esperance, but NOT Temperance.

Image


---

Image


It has also not the virtue Fides.

The Tarocco Siciliano (made around a similar time) has 3 cardinal virtues (Temperance, Justice, Force) and La Costanza, though it shows a figure similar to Minerva, and this stood for Sapientia or Prudentia.

Image


Image


La Costanza evolved possibly from an earlier Queen of Sicily, who caused, that Sicily became ruled by Aragon.

I remember, that I've read, that in 17th century generally the traditional group of 7 virtues was often broken.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

124
SteveM wrote:
Huck wrote:What about the figure "Dame France", which at least in 15th century occurred in French poetry?
Which trump from the Vievil deck do you suggest is Dame France? Or are you suggesting it doesn't refer to a card in the deck at all - and the question as to whether it is Fortune or Temperance/Fama is just a wild goose chase?
I earlier wrote ...
Around 1650, the assumed date for the Vievil deck, the idea might have come up, that the young Louis XIV would become a sun king (Sonnenkönig), possibly reacting on the upcoming insight, that not earth, but the sun is the center of our system (remember Galileo and his problems short before). This French sun king mythology is mirrored by French theater plays around 1654 for the young king, I remember, long before Louis became an active king.

"Fama Sol"... it's not only Fama, but also Sol, mentioned on this card.
I thought of Temperance. The second Angel or the second Fama, which is meant in the title of this thread.

https://www.welt.de/kultur/buehne-konze ... aates.html
Ludwig XIV. hatte freilich nicht nur Spaß am Tanz und Tand, er erkannte schnell den propagandistischen Wert dieser Auftritte. Ganz besonders groß war der offenbar, als er 15-jährig im Louvre im „Ballet Royal de la Nuit“ als Sonne auftrat. Die gehörte als heller, mächtiger und lebensspendender Himmelskörper zwar als Attribut des Kunstschutzherren Apoll längst zur Ikonografie der Könige, aber kein anderer Monarch hat sich so konsequent ihrer zur Mehrung des eigenen Ruhms und als persönliches Symbol bedient: die Sonne von 1653 bliebt förmlich an ihm kleben, er wurde, obwohl nicht von ihm so etikettiert und propagiert, der Sonnenkönig, le roi soleil. Der einzige. Bis heute.
Louis himself danced with 15 years in the "Ballet Royal de la Nuit" in the role of the sun. The word combination "Fama Sol" would fit rather well for this moment.
The idea of a sun, who helps a crying Dame France in the night, wouldn't be too bad.
France had had a bad and risky phase short before.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

126
I don't know, how sure you can be about this interpretation.

Merlin has only 20 names in his translation ... death and Fama Sol are missing. This makes Fama Sol even more interesting, if Dame means Fortune.

If we take dame as Fortune, we find Fama Sol as the only one card with inscription. Then we have Death as the only one card without a name.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

127
Huck wrote:I don't know, how sure you can be about this interpretation.
Pretty sure -- though it took me a while to get there, it was difficult to make sense of, until I realized that it is the Dame who is"shouted to the sound of the trumpet", that is, denounced/decried/trumpeted, not the one denouncing :)
Merlin has only 20 names in his translation ... death and Fama Sol are missing...

If we take dame as Fortune, we find Fama Sol as the only one card with inscription. Then we have Death as the only one card without a name.
Yep, which is what I wrote earlier :)

As for temperance/sol fama -- I think it has been pretty well answered: to go back to our Boiardo quote (introduced by Bertrand in earlier post of this thread) , {translation in Italics mine, corrections welcomed}:

Ma non già per cacciare, o stare a danza,
But it is not by hunting, or staying to dance,
Nè per festeggiar dame ne i giardini,
Nor playing with the ladies, nor gardens,
Starà nel mondo nostra nominanza,
We'll have in our world a great name,
Ma conosciuta fia da tamburini.
But by the measure of the drums.

Dopo la morte sol fama n'avanza,
After death only fame remains,
E veramente son color tapini,
and truly they are sorry fellows,
Che d aggrandirla sempre non han cura,
who don't continually seek greatness,
Perchè sua vita poco tempo dura.
Because life does not last long.

Dopo la morte sol fama n'avanza,
After death only fame remains*

Why the conflation with temperance? Because virtue perfects the soul, while fame may live on for a time after death, only greatness achieved in pursuit of virtue has a place in eternity.

SteveM

Orlando in Love, Mattio Boiardo, Book 2, I verse 35
Last edited by SteveM on 30 Mar 2017, 01:56, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Fame riddle

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Huck wrote:... .-) ... I wouldn't easily believe, that Vievil knew Boiardo poems, but I'm sure, that he knew Louis XIV
Ha ha ha :YMSIGH:

He did not need to know Boiardo, only the conventional (or Petrachian) Christian sentiment such as that expressed by Boiardo, which is given as an exemplar, not as Vievil's direct model.

Fame lives on after death (for a time); a soul perfected by virtue has a place in eternity --

They are expressing a sentiment common to each other, no direct reference to, or knowledge of, Boiardo is required.

It was a commonplace motif - for which the advent of the Sun King is not required either (at least, not a 17th century French one).

Besides which, probably he was following a pre-existing pattern, one related to for example that testified by Alciato some 80 years earlier -- who probably did know of Boiardo, and Petrach, but not I am sure King Louis XIV!

Re: Fame riddle

130
SteveM wrote: Why the conflation with temperance? Because virtue perfects the soul, while fame may live on for a time after death, only greatness achieved in pursuit of virtue has a place in eternity.

Speranza incerta e morte stabilita
Hope is uncertain and death stable
La vita porta con pungenti strali,
Life takes sharp barbs,
Né far si possono seco altri immortali
Nor can it make one immortal
Se non per fama sol di virtù ordita.
If not by fame alone in virtue hatched.

Alessandro Sforza, Il Canzoniere, Number 127

SteveM

Il dolce tempo e car di nostra vita
Falace e breve, o miseri mortali,
Carchi d'error, pensier dannosi e frali,
Non vi accorgete ogni hor che al fin ve invita?

Speranza incerta e morte stabilita
La vita porta con pungenti strali,
Né far si possono seco altri immortali
Se non per fama sol di virtù ordita.

Hor vi rimembri che la vita mancha,
El tempo fuge al vil corporeo stato,
Né val regnio o thesor, forza o possanza.

Dhe! fate almen che l'alma lassa e stancha
Per fama acquisti el fin tanto beato,
Che al mondo exemplo sia del ciel speranza!