Huck wrote:Yes, and they fought in the Belgium/Picardy region, where the name Vieville has a natural origin ... .-) ... as already noted in this thread.

Let me rephrase it as I think it should be written :
"where the name Vieville may have an origin... as already proposed earlier in this thread based on anachronic and approximatives considerations of late 18th century (if not 19th or 20th) figures".

Bertrand

Bertrand wrote:

Huck wrote:Yes, and they fought in the Belgium/Picardy region, where the name Vieville has a natural origin ... .-) ... as already noted in this thread.

Let me rephrase it as I think it should be written :
"where the name Vieville may have an origin... as already proposed earlier in this thread based on anachronic and approximatives considerations of late 18th century (if not 19th or 20th) figures".

Bertrand

Well, let's speak of a high probability. Naturally it could be, that a person with the name Vieville (perhaps from one of the other Vieville locations, there are some in not to great a distance) arrived in the region, and cause he was the first inhabitant and pioneer at his place, he called the place "Le Hérie-la-Viéville". I don't know, what a "Hérie" means, and I'm surely not the expert for French language, but my word book says, that "hérité" means "geerbt" and "ferme héritée" means "Erbhof" and that seems to indicate, that there once had been a greater farm, which wasn't hired and the owner had some independence. And he name o the owner was likely Vieville. A good place to get some sons, who guaranteed, that the name of the family stayed in the world and distributed from here.

Groom's Name: Joseph Ferdinand Vieville
Groom's Birth Date: 29 May 1824
Groom's Birthplace: Guise
Groom's Age: 30
Bride's Name: Julie Claire Carniaux
Bride's Birth Date: 18 Feb 1834
Bride's Birthplace: Fourmies
Bride's Age: 21
Marriage Date: 18 Apr 1855
Marriage Place: Fourmies, Nord, France
Groom's Father's Name: Francois Aristide Vieville
Groom's Mother's Name: Ismerie Olive Duval
Bride's Father's Name: Maximilien Joseph Carniaux
Bride's Mother's Name: Caroline Delaby

Here's somebody from Guise, a little late, and here seems to be a larger family ...

Renauld Vieville
France Births and Baptisms, 1546-1896
christening: 23 Oct 1691 CONDE-​SUR-​L'ESCAUT,​NORD,​FRANCE
residence: Fran,​ France
parents: Pierre Vieville,​ Marie File

Jean Baptiste Vieville
France Births and Baptisms, 1546-1896
christening: 22 Feb 1683 CONDE-​SUR-​L'ESCAUT,​NORD,​FRANCE
residence: Fran,​ France
parents: Jean Vieville,​ Marie File

Jacques Joseph Vieville
France Births and Baptisms, 1546-1896
christening: 01 Sep 1690 CONDE-​SUR-​L'ESCAUT,​NORD,​FRANCE
residence: Fran,​ France
parents: Pierre Vieville,​ Marie Filez

Charle Quentin Vieville
France Births and Baptisms, 1546-1896
christening: 02 Jan 1689 CONDE-​SUR-​L'ESCAUT,​NORD,​FRANCE
residence: Fran,​ France
parents: Pierre Vieville,​ Marie Filez

Anne Marie Vieville
France Births and Baptisms, 1546-1896
christening: 14 Jan 1686 CONDE-​SUR-​L'ESCAUT,​NORD,​FRANCE
residence: Fran,​ France
parents: Pierre Vieville,​ Marie Filez

Marie Catherine Vieville
France Births and Baptisms, 1546-1896
christening: 04 Aug 1687 CONDE-​SUR-​L'ESCAUT,​NORD,​FRANCE
residence: Fran,​ France
parents: Pierre Vieville,​ Marie File

Marie Catherine Vieville
France Births and Baptisms, 1546-1896
christening: 25 May 1693 CONDE-​SUR-​L'ESCAUT,​NORD,​FRANCE
residence: Fran,​ France
parents: Pierre Vieville,​ Marie Anne Stiernagan

Marie Elizabeth Vieville
France Births and Baptisms, 1546-1896
christening: 13 Sep 1694 CONDE-​SUR-​L'ESCAUT,​NORD,​FRANCE
residence: Fran,​ France
parents: Pierre Vieville,​ Marie Anne Tiernagon

... in c. 70 km distance from Guise very near to the Belgian border, from which one already has to assume, that they likely developed from the Guise region. Well, and they are end of 17th century. CONDE-​SUR-​L'ESCAUT has then 25 km distance to Tournai had been the big and great and early playing card production center Tournai.

Well, one can't even exclude a relation to a nobility-string in the family, there's a Marquise de la Vieville around the 1620s with doubtful character and in 15th century a dame da la Vieville, who married the gran Bastard of Burgundy.

Huck uses Piscina's interpretation of card 12 as "no fama" as somehow relevant to Alciato's title of "fama" for card 12. There are two things wrong with bringing in Piscina here (not "Priscina," incidentally: it would be good to correct the spelling, as people doing Google searches for "Priscina"--and similarly, THF searches for "Piscina"--would come up empty).

First, Alciato gives the name "crux" to the 12th card. "Crux" is associated more with Jesus than with Judas, and hence "fama" more than "no fama," although his fama will not be realized until after his Death.

Second, Piscina is writing about a different deck than Alciato probably is. Since in Piscino's Discorso the last trump is "Angel" and there is no Popess or Empress, just "Popes" and "Emperors," he is writing about a deck in the "Southern" tradition, descended from something like the Charles VI or the BAR. Alciato, writing in Pavia for a Lyonaise publisher, is in all likelihood referring to a "Western" deck, of which early examples are the PMB and the Cary Sheet. In the "southern" tradition, the Hanged Man is clearly Judas, as indicated by his money bags, and so "no fama" indeed. In the "Western" tradition, however, the card is more ambiguous. There are no money bags, and in addition there is the Milanese historical background in which the first Sforza duke's father was made the object of a "traitor" poster by a false pope, hence not a traitor at all (Muzio Atendola had deserted the false pope for the true one). So the card could just as well be about someone falsely called a traitor, such as Jesus. Along the same lines, the PMB Hanged Man is colored green, otherwise in the deck associated with fertility, and his head hangs over a hole in the ground, like a seed to be buried.

hi mikeH,

thanks for pointing to the typo. I repaired my part, as far I saw it.

mikeh wrote: First, Alciato gives the name "crux" to the 12th card. "Crux" is associated more with Jesus than with Judas, and hence "fama" more than "no fama," although his fama will not be realized until after his Death.

Second, Piscina is writing about a different deck than Alciato probably is. Since in Piscino's Discorso the last trump is "Angel" and there is no Popess or Empress, just "Popes" and "Emperors," he is writing about a deck in the "Southern" tradition, descended from something like the Charles VI or the BAR. Alciato, writing in Pavia for a Lyonaise publisher, is in all likelihood referring to a "Western" deck, of which early examples are the PMB and the Cary Sheet. In the "southern" tradition, the Hanged Man is clearly Judas, as indicated by his money bags, and so "no fama" indeed. In the "Western" tradition, however, the card is more ambiguous. There are no money bags, and in addition there is the Milanese historical background in which the first Sforza duke's father was made the object of a "traitor" poster by a false pope, hence not a traitor at all (Muzio Atendola had deserted the false pope for the true one). So the card could just as well be about someone falsely called a traitor, such as Jesus. Along the same lines, the PMB Hanged Man is colored green, otherwise in the deck associated with fertility, and his head hangs over a hole in the ground, like a seed to be buried.

Well, I don't say, that both make the same with the same deck, but both refer to the "Fame-allegory around death".
The usual state is, that Fame is either NOT a motif of the Tarot sequence or a highest trump in Minchiate (Fama volat) with some side appearances in Cary-Yale Tarocchi (clearly recognizable with trumpets), possibly also in Charles VI Tarot as "World or Prudentia" and in the Boiardo Tarocchi poem (the word appears in the trump 20 together with "tempo", with "tempo" likely referring to trump 19 (Nestor) and "Fame" to trump 21 (Lucrezia). Trump 20 itself seems to refer to "Tower" (ruin).
Without Piscina, Alciato, Vievil and the following Belgian Tarocchi we wouldn't know about a Fama near Death ... but only these versions lead "somehow" to the mentioned logic ...

Post viewtopic.php?f=11&t=747&p=10730&hilit= ... ion#p10730

Tarot cards 0-5 = the usual 6 persons
Tarot card 6 = Love
Tarot cards 7-12 = 6 cards, which somehow present Chastity (as a theory)
Tarot card 13 = Death
Tarot card 14 = Fama
Tarot Cards 15-20 = 6 cards, which somehow present Time (as a theory)
Tarot card 21 = Eternity

or with reflection on Piscina at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=747&p=10764&hilit=ariost#p10764

Tarot cards 0-5 = the usual 6 persons
Tarot card 6 = Love
Tarot cards 7-12 = 6 cards, which somehow present Chastity (as a theory), from which
Tarot card 12 = Hanging Man = NO FAME (according Piscina)
Tarot card 13 = Death
--------------------------------------------- cut (according Piscina)
Tarot card 14 = Fama
Tarot Cards 15-20 = 6 cards, which somehow present Time (as a theory)
Tarot card 21 = Eternity

In my opinion this is an interpretation of the Tarot row according the Trionfi poem of Petrarca. At other versions this doesn't turn up in this clear way.

Well, I don't disagree, except for your interpretation of the Alciato Hanged Man in terms of Piscina's "no fama." Even that--to qualify my previous post--is more uncertainty than disagreement

From re-reading Caldwell et al's edition of Piscina, I see that some aspects of Piscina's account do fit the "Western" type: he has the "four avangelists," a Western depiction of the World card. Also, Piscina's description of the Bateleur as "innkeeper" is the same as Alciato's, presumably Western. And Piscina seems to be from Piedmont, a region where the style of cards has "always been of the C or Western type instead of the Bolognese pack" (per Caldwell et al p. 8). Piscina's placement of the virtues is that of Ariosto in "Cartes Parlantes," presumably Ferrara, i.e. "Eastern" (whereas Alciato's bunching up of justice and strength is Southern; see http://l-pollett.tripod.com/cards26.htm). Caldwell et al say that Piscina's sequence "seems to resemble" the "Western" or "C" type. But apart from the "four evangelists" I don't see anything pointing to C in particular. I notice that Piscina calls Love the "portrait of Cupid." Neither the Western nor Southern has a picture that I would call a "portrait of Cupid." That would seem to fit the image of Love in the Leber (http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/leber/).

mikeh wrote: First, Alciato gives the name "crux" to the 12th card. "Crux" is associated more with Jesus than with Judas, and hence "fama" more than "no fama," although his fama will not be realized until after his Death.

Is the latin word crux delimited to an association with and only to be taken as a reference to Christ? I am not so sure . . . it may mean cross; hanging tree; impaling stake; crucifixion; torture/torment/trouble/miser and in terms of the image it may simply mean 'scaffold' for example.

'Crux' in relation to the alternative name for the card as traitor also brings to mind the medieval latin phrase 'crux interpretum', meaning 'the torment of the interpreters', the torment (or cross) of the translators in the sense not only of being an enigmatic or puzzling passage that requires a resolution as a central point of an argument, but as the Italian adage says: tradurre e tradire, exact translation not being possible, translation is a form of betrayal, il traduttore e un traditore, 'the translator is a traitor'.

Et qui n'a pas langaige en lui
Pour parler selon son desir,
Ung truchement lui fault querir;
Ainsi, ou par la ou par cy,
A trompeur (trompeur et demi).
Charles d'Orleans

(And anyone who does not himself possess a language for speaking as he wishes must seek out an interpreter; and so, in one way or another, for the trickster (or, liar/deceiver) there's a trickster (liar) and a half.)

"In poetry, diversity among languages became a metaphore for other complexities. The little circle around Charles d'Orleans at Blois in the mid-fifteenth century exercised its wit on the notion of the truchement, or interpreter, written trichement in some manuscripts that used paronomasia to bend the word into trickery. The old play on the words traduire/trahir (translate/betray) had a number of variations."

Jacqueline Cerquiglini-Toulet The Color of Melancholy p.14

SteveM wrote: Is the latin word crux delimited to an association with and only to be taken as a reference to Christ? I am not so sure . . . it may mean cross; hanging tree; impaling stake; crucifixion; torture/torment/trouble/miser and in terms of the image it may simply mean 'scaffold' for example.

I agree, Steve. For instance http://www.etymonline.com/


cross (n.)
O.E. cros (mid-10c.), from O.Ir. cros, probably via Scandinavian, from L. crux (acc. crucem, gen. crucis) "stake, cross" on which criminals were impaled or hanged, hence, figuratively, "torture, trouble, misery;"

In the context of Alciato, I would translate "crux" as "torture".


I go back to older posts in this thread, but possibly I have missed something and I am repeating things that have already been written. About Folengo, I suggest taking into account Limerno's introduction to his last sonnet:

I pray you to accept to hear one more which is (in my opinion) much less rough and trivial than the others I have already recited. I have been completely free in composing it, so that it contains the twenty-one trumps, adding to them Fame and the Fool

Bertrand wrote:If (? this is becoming messy and I get less and less where you want to go) you're looking for earlier occurences of the sentence "sol fama" check Orlando Innamorato
http://du-tarot.blogspot.com/2009/11/sol-fama.html

Dopo la morte sol fama n' avanza,
E veramente son color tapini,
Che d' aggrandirla sempre non han cura,
Perché sua vita poco tempo dura.

Belgian tarots often read "fama sol", Vieville is clearly written the other way round.
Also note "dopo la morte" = after the death (XIII), "sol fama" which is on XIIII in Vieville's tarot.

Maybe it's just a funny coincidence. Maybe not.

Bertrand

I have enjoyed this blog post. It really provides a good explanation for "sol fama" on card XIIII.

Boiardo's stanza is part of the speech of the African king Agramante, who is trying to convince his allies to invade France to fight against Charlemagne. Here is my translation:

Boiardo wrote: Ma non già per cacciare, o stare a danza,
Né per festeggiar dame nei giardini,
Starà nel mondo nostra nominanza,
Ma cognosciuta fia da tamburini.
Dopo la morte sol fama ne avanza,
E veramente son color tapini
Che d’agrandirla sempre non han cura,
Perché sua vita poco tempo dura.

Our name is not in this world
just to go hunting, dance,
having feasts with ladies in a garden,
but to be well known to the drummers.
After death, only fame is left,
how wretched those
who do not care to increase it,
because their lives last but a short time.

Thanks very much for the translation, Marco. Now that I know what the Boiardo is saying, I have to admit that Bertrand's post does seem to have the answer to the riddle.

In the context of the poem, I wonder if "fama" means in English "glory" more than "fame," which is synonymous with "renown." "Glory" in English is a word used in sacred contexts. It seems to me that the poem uses "fama" in a way that includes the other-worldly sense. Not only are our lives short, but also those after us. It is like when Galeazzo's assassin declared, "Life is short, but 'fama' is forever," or something like that. I don't think he was saying that his name would go down in history for his good deed. "Fama" in Petrarch, however, is in the temporal world, since Time trumps it, and therefore is more limited in its meaning. This is not to deny, however, that Petrarch's use is connected with Boiardo's and thus with Vievil's.

As to "crux," it's not that the word couldn't be applied to Judas, i.e. a true traitor, just that it would more commonly mean "cross" and be associated with Jesus, the traitor falsely so-called. But I much appreciate the citings of other contexts showing that the word meant more than "cross." Without further evidence, the word for me remains mired in ambiguity. However the resolution of that question is no longer relevant to answering the riddle about card 14.

A few instances of “crux” and “cruciare” as “torture”.

Catullus, XCIX

Surripui tibi, dum ludis, mellite Iuventi,
     suaviolum dulci dulcius ambrosia.
verum id non impune tuli: namque amplius horam
     suffixum in summa me memini esse cruce,
dum tibi me purgo nec possum fletibus ullis
     tantillum vestrae demere saevitiae.

I stole from you, while you were playing, honey-sweet Juventius,
a kiss more sweet than sweet ambrosia.
But I did not get away with it: for such a long hour
I remember being crucified on the greatest cross,
and then I apologized to you, but I was not able to remove
with any tears even a little of your ferocity.


Augustine, De Civitate Dei, 19, VI

saepe coguntur tormentis innocentium testium ad alienam causam pertinentem quaerere veritatem. Quid cum in sua causa quisque torquetur et, cum quaeritur utrum sit nocens, cruciatur et innocens luit pro incerto scelere certissimas poenas

[Judges are] frequently compelled to put innocent witnesses to the torture to ascertain the truth regarding the crimes of other men. What shall I say of torture applied to the accused himself? He is tortured to discover whether he is guilty, so that, though innocent, he suffers most undoubted punishment for crime that is still doubtful.


Alciato, Parergon

The passage is about some unclear verses by Vergil.

Fama est interrogatum eum ab Asconio Pediano, ut gryphum dissolveret, detrectasse, quod eo grammaticis crucem fixisse attestaretur: et recte quidem ille. nam quae eius loci interpretes afferunt, etiam ipsa oculorum inspectione convincuntur falsa esse. Mihi certe iureconsulto nullam crucem, qui magnopere hac de re non sum sollicitum.

It is said that Asconius Pedianus asked [Vergil] to solve the enigma. He refused. So it was confirmed that he put the grammarians to torture: and he did well. For what the interpreters of that passage maintain is clearly wrong, if one inspects the subject with his own eyes. Certainly, to me as a jurist, this is no torture, since I am not much interested in such things.

Mike, I had not thought of the distinction between Glory and Fame: an interesting point. Both are Latin (and Italian) words “fama” and “gloria”. “Fama” is neutral: it derives from any great deed, it does not matter if it is “good” or “bad”. Anyway, the two concepts are quite close.

Here are two more stanzas from Boiardo's second Canto:

     Ed io cantando torno alla memoria
     Delle prodezze de’ tempi passati,
     E contarovi la più bella istoria
     (Se con quïete attenti me ascoltati)
     Che fusse mai nel mondo, e di più gloria,
     Dove odireti e degni atti e pregiati
     De’ cavallier antiqui, e le contese
     Che fece Orlando alor che amore il prese.

     Voi odirete la inclita prodezza
     E le virtuti de un cor pellegrino,
     L’infinita possanza e la bellezza
     Che ebbe Rugiero, il terzo paladino;
     E benché la sua fama e grande altezza
     Fu divulgata per ogni confino,
     Pur gli fece fortuna estremo torto,
     Ché fu ad inganno il giovanetto morto.

With my song I recall the memory
of the feats of ancient times,
I will tell you the most beautiful story
(if you listen to me with attention)
that ever was in this world, the most full of glory.
I will tell you the noble and valiant deeds
of ancient knights, and the fights
of Orlando when he fell in love.

I will tell you the great courage
and the virtue of a rambling heart,
the great strength and the beauty
of Ruggero, the third paladin;
even if his fame has travelled
to a great height, beyond all borders,
fortune made to him the great injustice
of killing him by treason when he was young.

From the Iconologia by Cesare Ripa:

Gloria. Donna, con una corona d'oro in capo, e nella destra mano una tromba. La gloria, come dice Cicerone, è una fama di molti e segnalati benefitij fatti a' suoi, a gli amici, alla Patria, e ad ogni sorte di persone.

A woman, with a golden crown on her head, and a trumpet in her right hand. Glory, as Cicero says, is the fame of many exceptional benefits done to people of the same family, to friends, to the homeland, and to any kind of people.

So, we can say that Glory implies Fame, but not vice versa.

Ripa's definition suggests that the World card of the Cary-Yale deck should be interpreted as Glory (since the allegory includes two crowns). But the trumpet also is a typical attribute of Fame.