Re: Shame of Time

#13
mmfilesi wrote:... :-? ...

I dont understand... why Orazi are sure the sheets are from the XVII century? I cant see any date or name of cardmarker...

Maybe I need read this book:

http://www.ronciglione-crs.it/CRS/home/ ... mmario.htm
I think, there's no evidence for card production in Ronciglinne before ca. 1580 (?). The cards were found in book-binding (juristic material) ... which might have happened later than the material in the book. So the writing of the text is not necessarily the date of production of the cards. In 17th century Ronciglione was definitely a card printing city of some importance.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Shame of Time

#14
OK. I found an interesting article to date this sheet...

http://www.bibliotecaviterbo.it/Rivista ... Carosi.pdf

Documents:

1) 1379.

In the chronicle of Nicola della Tucia said "in the year 1379 come to Viterbo the cards which are called Nayl by the saracinos". Its a document known.

2) 1458.

The game of cards are forbiden. The penalty is a gold ducato.

3) 1609.

The first cardmarker of Ronciglione? Michelangelo Mercuri da Tagliacozzo purchase the instruments necessary for the production of cards. The cost are 311 scudi.


4) 1623.

Michelangelo Mercuri give the "house-prints" (I dont know the name in English: la imprenta) to her son Francesco Mercuri.
ronci1.gif
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5) 1638.

Pellegrino di Antonio Pellegrini (born in Parma) purchase the house-prints of Francesco Mercuri. Inventory of the house-prints (very interesting!):
ronci2.gif
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6) 1642.

Notice of another house-prints. Francesco Valcarano purchase for 37 scudi the house-prints of Giovann Battista Longatto.
ronci3.gif
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7) 1643.

A trade agreement. Francesco Faccheres (from Bergamo), Francesco Valcarano (from Roma), Vincenzo Ferrini (from Roncigliano) agree with Pellegrini to buy almost all production. (They seem to distributors). 35 dozens of decks in week. Pellegrini will produce 6 more freely.

There are no more documents.

In 1649 Ronziglione is destroyed by the troops of the Pope. The Farnese lost the duchy and the city falls into a deep economic decline.

"Nel 1649 Papa Urbano VIII decise di togliere ai Farnese il Ducato di Castro e Ronciglione e così la cittadina passò di nuovo sotto il diretto dominio dei Papi. La sconfitta della famiglia Farnese avvenne con la totale distruzione della città Castro, che dopo cinque ore di combattimento fu rasa al suolo "senza lasciar pietra su pietra"."


http://www.vinilazio.org/Il%20Lazio/STO ... GLIONE.htm

..................

Well, maybe we can think between 1630 and 1649 (approximately) Ronciglione was an important center of card makers. At least important enough to export minchiate? Yes, may be.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: Shame of Time

#15
This book seem interesting:

Stamperie, carte e cartiere nella Ronciglione del XVII e XVIII secolo:
atti della giornata di studio presso la Sala riunioni della Cassa rurale e artigiana, 26 ottobre 1991

Francesco M. D'Orazi
Centro ricerche e studi, 1996.

I cant read it, but in the title we can found a clue: from XVII to XVIII centurys.

Thats mind, the cardmarkers of Ronciglione survive the 1649 - disaster?

In this case, the sheet can be made in the XVIII centurys.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: Shame of Time

#16
The IPCS article from October 1989 has the two Minchiate sheets found in the binding of some notarial documents titled "1585". As already stated: the binding might have happened later.

The article speaks of evidence for playing card production from begin of 17th century till one century later. But it speaks also of a disastrious fire in 1799 ... so a question is, if the archive material is complete. Actually Ronciglione belonged to the Farnese since 1530 and it speaks of paper mills there already in 15th century. In 1534 - a few years later - Paul III, earlier cardinal Alessandro Farnese, became pope. Ronciglione later had a playing card production privilege for papal states beside Rome.
It seems logical to assume, that the card production privilege was gotten in the time, when Paul III. was pope ... but: no evidence. Then we have playing card prohibition for ...

Viterbo: November 1548 - then pope Paul III was still living. Viterbo is near to Ronciglione, but was not Farnese domain.

Then in 1558 for Ronciglione and Castro (both part of the Farnese domain ... in 1558 a pope (Paul IV) reigned, who was operating with matters of inquisition, book burning and possibly other forms of prohibitions. And possibly some movement was there to attack earlier Farnese privileges.

Hard to believe, that a city with paper mill in 15th century hadn't seen any playing card production before 17th century.

Recently I studied, that a card maker sold his shop in Rome in 1559 (Depaulis article) ... I think, there was also a connection to increased playing card prohibition in Rome in this time. Here:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=654&p=9741&hilit=1559#p9741
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Shame of Time

#17
mmfilesi wrote:This book seem interesting:

Stamperie, carte e cartiere nella Ronciglione del XVII e XVIII secolo:
atti della giornata di studio presso la Sala riunioni della Cassa rurale e artigiana, 26 ottobre 1991

Francesco M. D'Orazi
Centro ricerche e studi, 1996.

I cant read it, but in the title we can found a clue: from XVII to XVIII centurys.

Thats mind, the cardmarkers of Ronciglione survive the 1649 - disaster?

In this case, the sheet can be made in the XVIII centurys.
No, it's agreed, that Ronciglione and its playing card production survived 1649 under new regime. Castro was destroyed (capital of the Southern Farnese countries; the Northern were Parma and Piaczenza). The playing card production functioned till begin of 18th century.

The original Farnese Southern countries were NorthWest of Viterbo. When Alessandro Farnese became cardinal (thanks to the beauty of his sister, lover of Alexander VI) they got more influence and got some territory SouthEast of Viterbo (Viterbo didn't belong to it).

Image

Nr. 1 is Ronciglione.
http://books.google.com/books?id=xe51Th ... 06&f=false

Before Alessandro got Ronciglione (1530), his sister Giulia had a governor post ... quoting myself:
His sister meanwhile was released in 1500 as lover of Alexander VI and went to Carbognano (10 km distance to Ronciglione). She returned 1505 to Rome and married her daughter Laura to a relative of the new pope Julius II. She had various lovers and then a new husband, but returned to Carbognano as a governor 1506, which she ruled with cleverness till 1522. Then she returned to Rome, in the household of her brother. In 1524 she died, 50 years old.
His sister knew the region. She had arranged herself with pope Julius II in 1505/06 ... who was once a foe of Alexander VI (and so of her).
Julius, when still cardinal, had ruled over Avignon, nearly 30 years. Avignon became then a successful center for playing card production, and, especially remarkable, it lost this state, when Julius went away from Avignon. Avignon was 1505 the second place, which had a documented Taroch card production ... well, just a month later, when his nephew had married the daughter of Giulia. Accident?

Julius knew about playing card production, especially the success of French card production, that's definite. Naturally, as pope, he couldn't indulge too much in this form of business. But surely he didn't forget about useful ways to have some income. It would be natural, that he passed his insider knowledge to a relative, another way of the usual nepotism. But whom? That's a good question.
And finally the Farnese and Ronciglione, a relative small location, had a card production privilege for the papal states.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Shame of Time

#18
Very interesting, thanks for the development. :) %%-

...

Giordano Berti (Collezionar Minchiate) said:
i Germini di Ronciglione (fine sec. XVI); due fogli, oggi in possesso di collezionisti privati ma in origine contenuti in un volume dell'Archivio Notarile di Ronciglione, presso Viterbo
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

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