Re: The order of trumps
Posted: 23 Apr 2011, 15:17
Hi macaroon, welcome to the forum.
Yes, the Sermón Steele is the number 1 on the previous post.
Yes, the Sermón Steele is the number 1 on the previous post.
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Thanks Marcomarco wrote:I just posted on Tarotpedia a translation of the excerpts from Susio published by Renier.
Yes, it's a pity that the whole poem is not available.SteveM wrote: Shame Renier chose to censor the tercets - are the missing ones available somewhere?
Marco, your chart is an excellent way of displaying the variations in "C" orderings (where "C" is defined by the placing of Temperance in the 14th spot, I presume).I attach a table that presents a few variants of the Western aka C order...
It is not difficult for Death to have gotten the number 17. It is just that we have no evidence that it was, and much evidence to the contrary. Some people were thought to be captured by the Devil (as in the Cary Sheet) before death. "World," if interpreted as this-worldly fame or fortune, might also precede Death. And "Death" would naturally follow the image of lightning hitting a tower. Admittedly such a tarot sequence would be considerably outside the experience of any of us.It's worth noting though, that (in my experience at least), it's far more difficult to fit Death into 17th place than to leave it at the 13th.
I want to expand on Ross's point. Etteilla claimed to have been introduced to the tarot by "un sage Piémontois (a) très-agé, & se disant petit fils d'Alexis dit le Piémontois" (a wise, very old Piedmontese, who said he was the grandson of Alexis said the Piedmontese) (2me Cahier, pp. 136f; for the context and my attempt at its translation see http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php? ... tcount=130). Footnote (a) goes into more detail; the man himself was also named Alexis, and Etteilla spent much time with him learning about the tarot ( p. 137).All writers on Tarot, who have taken notice of it, have taken the association of 13 with misfortune, and by extension death, for granted - except for Etteilla, who explicitly rejects it, for dogmatic reasons that may be connected to the number 17 (see below):
"The false savants have said that the number or sign of death was 13, and in consequence they assigned Death 13. But this Book takes man in his creation, and it is recognized that Adam was in no way subject to death at the number 13 but at that of 17."
(from the Deuxième Cahier, quoted by Jacques Halbronn in "Etteilla: L'astrologie du livre de Thot (1785), suivie de Recherches sur l'histoire de l'astrologie et du Tarot", p. 31)
Upon reflection, it seems to me that Marcos is right: Inferno doesn't go with Demonio, it goes with the one after that, because other lists then have "Casa di Pluto," "Casa del Diavolo," etc.[14] L'Inferno/"il Demonio" (It seems to me that Lollio meant "Inferno" to apply to the Devil card, because Imperiali objects that the Devil isn't found there, but in the World.)
[15] Imperiali only: "Dal chiaro Ciel, scende nel scuro centro" (from the luminous sky down to the dark center)
I also added one more sentence to my comment on [12]: ...The betrayer depicted, especially in the image with moneybags, is Judas, acting out of malice.[14] Imperiali only: "il Demonio."
[15] L'Inferno/"Dal chiaro Ciel, scende nel scuro centro, /Et ritrova l’Inferno, e le sue pene" (from the luminous sky down to the dark center, finding Hell and its torments)
Next, here is the Italian, followed by the English translation, of the relevant passage, essentially the last paragraph and a half of the essay.[14] Diavolo
[15] Stella
[16] Luna
[17] Sole
[18] L’Angelo
[19] Giustizia / Iddio
[20] Giudicio
[21] Mondo
"Zorli 2010," the translators' bibliography says, is a "downloadable pdf file at http://www.tretre.it/index.php?id=200&L=0.42 del Cielo; This title for the card is paralleled in Vincenza Imperiali's Risposta to to Alberto Lollio's Invettiva contra il giuoco del tarocco (1550), line 263, which also follows the B order. Other lists of the B order call it Saetta, Fuoco, or Casa (del Diavolo). For a recent transcription of Lollio's Invettiva and Imperiali's Riposta, see Zorli 2010.
If that were true, "Angel" wouldn't be the name of a separate card at all, but merely refer to different beings that govern Stella, Luna, Sol, and the Cieli. Perhaps that is what the author is thinking, so that he can still have seven cards after Morte. However that may not be true of the deck he is trying to interpret, since he has misinterpreted one of its titles.Each of them [the "supernatural creatures of Gods," i.e. heavenly bodies] depends on its own intelligence which is the Angel, who governs them and moves them...
So here is what I get for the last seven cards:He [i.e. Iddio] is represented by Justice