Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

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Huck wrote: 11 Aug 2020, 09:22 I think, you'll get no other.
Similar pictures:
https://www.google.com/search?sa=G&hl=d ... z39ShnAvJM

One has the name Saint Parascheva ????
Probably not. But we know what they look like.

But this is a wild goose chase for Sacco, which is best explained as oxidized silver. And it has nothing to do with Marziano, or the genealogy painted by Michelino in Castelletto.
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

423
Ross wrote
But this is a wild goose chase for Sacco, which is best explained as oxidized silver. And it has nothing to do with Marziano, or the genealogy painted by Michelino in Castelletto.

Better not clog up the thread with any more of this, or I'll split it off into a different thread.
I think that's a bit harsh, Ross, considering its probable relationship to Venus, given the name of the place, the alleged original silver, and the general subject of the black Venus. Where Begg is special, compared to other sources, is that he links up the black virgins to sites associated with Venus. It seems not unreasonable to me that if black virgins connected with Venus are tarnished silver in one part of the Roman Empire beyond the borders of Greece, then probably the same practice occurs in other parts. If you have the book, he may list examples of black Virgins at former shrines to Venus in Italy, perhaps with more information.

The problem with Begg, as with many others, is that his sources need to be checked and authenticated. In this case he actually cites a source, Marie Durand-Lefebvre. Her 1937 work Etude sur L’Origine des Vierges Noires (G. Durassie & Cie, Paris, 1937) is available online, at least where I live: https://dds.crl.edu/crldelivery/4467. On p. 38 her entry for Romania is as follows:
Roumanie.
Bucarest:
A Sainte-Vinère, une Sainte Vierge d'argent à face
charbonneuse accueille, parmi les fumigations odorantes,
des voeux qui s'adressent à Vénus et à Cérès.
Bibliographie: Paul Morand, Bucarest, page 201, 1935.
I read that as:
In Sainte-Vinère, a Holy Virgin of blackened silver to the face
welcomes, among the fragrant fumigations,
wishes addressed to Venus and Ceres.

Morand's book is not online that I can find. But it is in a library not far from me and probably accessible by Interlibrary loan. I will work on it. I expect she is simply quoting what he says. He seems of a poetic disposition, judging from his words and other works.

The search term "argent" in her work turns up several examples, including at least one in Italy.
[Next day: I removed the rest of the post because it was off-topic and I see a topic where it will fit better. Also, I have answered my own question.]
Last edited by mikeh on 12 Aug 2020, 14:22, edited 1 time in total.

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

424
mikeh wrote: 11 Aug 2020, 11:33
Morand's book is not online that I can find. But it is in a library not far from me and probably accessible by Interlibrary loan. I will work on it. I expect she is simply quoting what he says. He seems of a poetic disposition, judging from his words and other works.
It's here, but I don't trust these sites - http://1a798741600516e5bad6414992c21c39 ... carest.pdf

Paul Morand had a nice long life, 1888-1976, but that means that his book won't come into the public domain, even in the United States, until at least 2046. In the meantime, only used book dealers and collectors can legally profit off of his work, to the tune of hundreds or thousands of dollars until then. People who merely want to read what he said and study him, must either pay the extortionists or go to the nearlest library that has it, or will loan it.

Of course there is no copyright holder who is going to sue, as the PDF above shows, but people tiptoe around these laws, applied like boilerplate over everything, and who is going for fight, say "US copyright law" or "EU copyright law" in general? No creator is being robbed, and there is no authorized reprinting, so no heirs are making a penny off of the used dealers, collectors, or the market that keeps upping the price.

I don't know why it is moral for used book dealers and "the demand" of the market to make huge profits from this old book, but sincerely interested people cannot distribute a PDF without looking over their shoulder as if they are doing something dirty.

In any case, I'd love to see if he has a photo, if you can take a look at the book.
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

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mikeh wrote: 11 Aug 2020, 11:33 I think that's a bit harsh, Ross, considering its probable relationship to Venus, given the name of the place, the alleged original silver, and the general subject of the black Venus.
Yes, I thought so too, so I changed my mind within a few minutes, and we might as well leave the discussion here. The search function works well, if you can think of a narrow enough term to avoid a great deal of searching.
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Giotto's frescoes in Azzone's palace in Milan, 1335.

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Could Filippo Maria have been inspired in some way by the account of his great-grandfather Stefano's nephew Azzone's frescoes of pagan heroes in the palace he built in Milan in the 1330s?

From Louis Green, “Galvano Fiamma, Azzone Visconti and the Revival of the Classical Theory of Magnificence,” Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Institutes, Vol. 53 (1990), pp. 98-113.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/751341?seq=1
- I learned about Azzone's “Vainglory” (vanagloria) fresco in the palace he built in the 1330s, just south of the current Duomo. All that remains is the church and tower of San Gottardo (which had the famous clock). The rest, including the hall with the fresco, was destroyed by his successor Galeazzo II (Filippo Maria's grandfather), in the 1350s.

From Green (page 103 note 28) I also learned that it must be attributed to Giotto, one of his very last works, in 1335. The author who meticulously proved this was Creighton Gilbert, “The Fresco by Giotto in Milan,” Arte Lombardia, Nuova Serie, No. 47/48 (1977), pp. 31-72.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/43105104.pdf?seq=1
Gilbert reconstructed what he thought Giotto's original looked like, by combining three frotispieces of 14th century manuscripts of Petrarch's De viribus illustribus (see below)

Green's quote of Fiamma on Azzone's palace and frescoes -


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/marzianotex ... iamma2.jpg

Also quoted in Evelyn Welch, Art and Authority in Renaissance Milan, pp. 172-173.
She quotes Azario on Galeazzo's destruction of most of Azzone's palace:

http://www.rosscaldwell.com/marzianotex ... leazzo.jpg

Note that when you Google maps search “san gottardo” “milan” you get a different church, outside of the Porta Ticinese, south of the medieval city. Azzone's palace, and the San Gottardo he built, is just south of the current Duomo, down the Via Palazzo Reale, where it meets Via Francesco Pecorari:

"Chiesa di San Gottardo in Corte," slightly below the center of the page; the edge of the Duomo can be seen at the top (for orientation; north is up) -

http://www.rosscaldwell.com/marzianotex ... rdomap.jpg

Gilbert's reconstruction of the prototype for the Vainglory illustrations, reflecting what Giotto would have frescoed for Azzone's palace.


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/marzianotex ... gloria.jpg

The two Bibliothèque nationale pictures - the two at the top - are available in high resolution color. Unfortunately, the Darmstadt, Landesbibliothek ms 101 is only online in black and white, so this reconstruction at the bottom right is the best we see at the moment. Gilbert shows how the figure of Gloria should not be winged (hence Darmstadt), and in a circle, not a vesica (also Darmstadt), but that there are many horsemen and heroes (hence the BnF manuscripts). Thus the reconstruction.

This article by Zuleika Murat in 2019 might show a color version, but it is not online either, unless someone buys it for 23 euros. I'm not sure I'm tempted enough yet, since the topic of this artist and manuscript is far from my interests and money is tight.
"Jacopo di Paolo e il codice del De viris illustribus della Universitäts- und Landesbibliothek di Darmstadt (Ms. 101)", in A Primordio urbis: Un itinerario per gli studi liviani (Brepols, 2019)
https://www.brepolsonline.net/doi/10.14 ... B.5.117500
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

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A question ...
Do we have had improvements to this article at Trionfi.com of c. 2003-2005?
Of special interest would be the dating of the time of John Palaiologos in Milan.

An article to the journey of John Palaiologus in 1423-24 ...
http://trionfi.com/emperor-john-palaiol ... t-in-milan
Filippo became powerful again and in 1418 he accused Beatrice de Tender cause of adultery. Beatrice ended beheaded. In Constantinople the pressure of the Osmans urged the family of the Emperor to arrange with allies in the West, in Italy. John's brother married a Malatesta daughter, John himself got Sofia, ex-wife from Filippo Maria Visconti. At the same time (1421) Filippo Maria Visconti got through successful operations of his condottiere Carmagnola the rulership in Genua. As Genua was the great concurrent of Venice on the Mediterrean sea, Filippo Maria became by this an influential factor also in the region of Constantinople.

In 1422 the Osmans reopened the hostilities and Constantinople in its difficulties decided to send John in research for militarical help to Italy. John left in adventurous manner Constantinople in November 1423, but soon after his departure his brother was able to arrange a momentary peace with Sultan Murad (22th February 1424). John reached Italy, first under the condition, that he didn't knew about the peace treaty in his home country. He visited various courts in Italy, under them also the court in Milan and Filippo Maria Visconti. His stay endured not too long, in June 1424 he is already reported to have been at a visit of Emperor Sigismondo in Hungary. Considering the long travel distances and the fact, that he visited various courts in Italy, he couldn't have spend too much time in Milan. At begin of November 1424 he is back in Constantinople with the advice of Emperor Sigismondo, that his chances of securing aid from western Christendom would be better if he and his people would swear obedience to the Pope in Rome. This leads more than a decade later to the council of Ferrara/Florence in the years 1438/1439, a theme which is concentrated in our article Ferrara 1441.

Nonetheless the visit could have made a strong impression on Filippo Maria, who - as far we know it - never left Milanese territory and who didn't have much opportunity in his life to meet people of the same or a similar high rank than himself (we know of the high guests John Palaiologos and of Alfonso of Aragon; when Emperor Sigismondo visted Milano in 1431, Filippo Maria avoided any personal contact). The condition, that he did meet the husband of his earlier wife from an "unreal marriage" might have raised additional curiosity on his side. The interest in Greek matters was vivid in Milano already in 1400 - 1403, when the Greek teacher chrysoloras spend some time in Pavia and the Greek Emperor of that time (Manuel) also made a journey through Europe to gather help for his problems in Constantinople (compare the Decembrio biography). Filippo Maria was young then (8 - 11 years old), but he might have gotten some impressions there.

It is reported, that Filippo Maria in 1423/1424 ordered the decoration of rooms for the expected visit of the Emperor in the castle of Pavia (actually this means, that Filippo showed greater interest), the painter is said to have been Pisanello, who realised some frescoes with "hunting scenes". "Hunting scenes" were loved by cardmakers of the time, we know that by comtemporary German decks. The motif "Apollo hunts Daphne", realised in the Michelino deck, might - with some goodwill - be counted as a "hunting motif" . The paintings of Pisanello are lost, so a question, if Pisanello's prepared something, which reappeared in Michelino's deck, stays unanswered. Pisanello and Michelino are suspected to have known each other from earlier times in Venice, so a cooperative work wouldn't surprize. Pisanello, who was present in Ferrara in 1438, made then a medal with the portrait of John Palaiologos (see at the left) - it's assumed, that this was the first of many medals, which were manufactured by Pisanello and which gave us the portraits of many important persons of the time (it's unclear, but possible, that John was personally acquainted to Pisanello already since 1424).

We think, that this short visit of the Greek emperor left an impulse on Filippo Maria Visconti, which finally did lead to the decision to give the Trionfi deck the content of old Greek gods. The painter became Michelino and Martiano da Tortona was commissioned to write an accompanying manuscript. It's only a theory, of course, but we think, that the Greek gods were not a common motif in 1424 in Italy, so it seems logical to ask for the curious reason of their early appearance.

The marriage between John and Sophia of Montferrat didn't take a good run - perhaps cause of missing children. It was divorced in 1426 and Sophia returned to Italy. A twice divorced woman - a rarity at this time.
The interesting dates and facts:
Filippo Maria Visconti was proposed as a husband of Sophia of Monferrat. The idea was abondened about the changing situations in Milan (ast least in 1412, possibly already before). But one might assume an early interest of Filippo Maria to Greece in the fact, that the Monferrat family generally had a great interest in the situation of Constantinople.
Carmagnola takes Genova for Filippo Maria Visconti in 1421. With that Filippo Maria Visconti gains influence on the situation of the Greek region around Constantinople.
Thessalonica is sold by the emperors of Constantinople to Venice in September 1423.
In November 1423 John Palaiologos VIII starts his journey.
Venice lost Thessaloniki in 1430 to the Ottomans.

Some details in the Visconti genealogy texts and in the Michelino card deck give reason for the suspicion, that there was possibly a special attention of Filippo Maria for the region of Dodona and Thessaly.

The Thessaly region was already in the hands of the Ottomans since 1393 (?).
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https://pceldran.wordpress.com/2019/08/ ... 5cbad0f6e/
"Sophia Palaiologina of Montferrat, 2nd wife of John VIII and great-granddaughter of Theodore I of Montferrat"
"She was born on January 01, 1399 (died on August 21, 1434, she was 35 years old) in Casale Monferrato."
"She married with John VIII Palaiologos (55), on Sunday, January 28th, 1421. Sophia Of Montferrat was 22 and John VIII Palaiologos was 28 years old. After 5 years, 6 months, they break up on August 1st, 1426."
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

428
I haven' t researched this area, but I can try to find some sources.

1423-4 seems too late for Marziano to do this. Obviously he could have, but he is last reported in Milan in October 1422, and the only acts of his after that are in April 1423 in Pavia (his signature, I don't know the nature of the document), and July 1424 in Tortona. Barzizza says he helped Filippo Maria "when his health permitted," which suggests he had declining health in his last years. He appears to have retired to his estate in Tortona from 1423 onward. At least, the last chancellary work he did for Filippo Maria was in October 1422.

I've just checked the source for the April 1423 letter that Marziano signed, Baroni, a study of the chancellors and secretaries of Giovanni Maria and Filippo Maria, and she says it is in among the ducal letters in Pavia. So it could be that Filippo Maria was in Pavia at the time, perhaps something to do with the imperial visit or the paintings at the castle.

It looks like it should be number 230 or 233 here - http://archiviostoricocivicopavia.archi ... nits/57956

It's also possible that Marziano merely copied it in Pavia, or composed it in Pavia, from a Milanese original and that Filippo Maria was not present.
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